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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

King of the Americas said:
That's the way things work in deserts...

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They are planted 45 feet apart and their growth is directly associated with the water they receive.
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Because that picture is from a plantation from the latter half of the 20th century...

If that plantation had been started in pre-columbian times, as you suggest, and abandoned centuries ago, it would not look like this anymore. The original trees would be dead, and their offspring would not have grown in the exact same grid pattern.

Stop lying man...
 
Ruins from one of the farms...Yup, that's 1960's design alright...pfft.

On Google Earth, turn on the Photos option.
 

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Porpoise of Life said:
Because that picture is from a plantation from the latter half of the 20th century...

If that plantation had been started in pre-columbian times, as you suggest, and abandoned centuries ago, it would not look like this anymore. The original trees would be dead, and their offspring would not have grown in the exact same grid pattern.

Stop lying man...
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It's called re-occupation.

AND, many of the trees are dead- those that failed to reach ground water...

How is it not odd to you and ALL of the skeptics here, that there is NO FUNDING associated with this project, no media, no history, and no person or people who took credit as its designer or builders??

Offspring? Planting and establishing this orchard, according to the study presented, required repeated watering. Stuff that fell off would likely not sprout and become established.

Depending on how far apart they are planted they reach full height and maturity...this study has NOTHING to do with the trees I am talking about. In the photos I've provided via Google Earth trees are planted 45 feet apart, NOT 10 or 13 feet apart.
 

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So now they are 20th century trees, but you claim the required infrastructure has been there for centuries?
I don't suppose you'll be providing any evidence for this?
 
No, I mean evidence that the plantation predates the date the Chilean government claims they started it (by centuries). Exactly what I said. Stop obfuscating.
 
To recap:

I have posted countless Google Earth images, and historic photos of artificial forests, from all around the world, that pre-date colonization.

Their forests dwarf our best agricultural efforts... I believe this image offers evidence that even our oldest rainforests were artificially planted:

Lat. 18° 5'49.10"S
Long. 60°50'1.72"W
 

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Porpoise of Life said:
No, I mean evidence that the plantation predates the date the Chilean government claims they started it (by centuries). Exactly what I said. Stop obfuscating.
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*sigh*

What ARE pictures of a fully matured orchard from the 1960's if not evidence of a pre-existing structure???

Can you tell me who designed this project, or how many people were hired to plow the desert, dig holes, and water seedlings?

What survey company laid out the lines? They stretch for 12 miles...are you suggesting knotted string, maybe?

"...Before planting, saturation irrigation is applied to the planting hole so as to wet it as far down as possible.

4. Irrigation. To ensure that the plants become properly established, enough water must be given to penetrate down to root level so that there is constant moisture around the roots. How many establishment irrigations are needed varies with the ground-water situation, and there will be considerable divergence as to the depth of the moisture (Lamagdelaine, 1972). An average estimate for the establishment period would be 11 waterings. The plant is established when it begins to send out new shoots. When this occurs, irrigation can be carried out every 20 days (Lanino, 1972)."

I challenge ANY of you to find me millions of gallons of fresh water in that desert...

"...Copiapó, a city of roughly 180,000, grows grapes and olives but its name is synonymous with copper and silver mining. It sits in one of the driest deserts in the world; the Atacama receives 1 millimeter of rain or less on average per year. Needless to say, water is a scarce resource for which Copiapó’s residents have found themselves fighting mining and agricultural companies.

Lying along the foothills of the Andes, Copiapó’s water at one point flowed from the mountains into the town. The city used to get its water from this river and from 20 wells east of the city towards the mountains. But the wells that served the city for more than 15 years have been overexploited. Aguas Chañar, Copiapó’s water utility, says that the 90 meter-deep wells dried up so fast that within two years, 19 of them went dry. Today, only one is still operational." *http://latinamericanscience.org/2014/05/chiles-thirst-for-water/
 
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King of the Americas said:
That's the way things work in deserts...

---

They are planted 45 feet apart and their growth is directly associated with the water they receive.
Click to expand...
You mean that they have to be watered to continue growing, and that the people tending them over long periods only water them at intervals of 45 feet? So "the way things work in deserts" is that there is no disordered or irregular natural growth of trees?

Far from true.

These trees, like some other dry land species, can pick up water from night time dew and mists, and transport it to their roots.
The tamarugo plant has a special physiological flexibility which allows it to develop under conditions which would be lethal for other plants. The humidity provided by night mists, dew and relative humidity, is notable for its fluctuations as well as for its extent. With respect to other species, for example, it has been successfully demonstrated that an artificial mist applied to Pinus insigne sprouts during the dark period of the day/night cycle prolongs the lives of young plants by as much as 45 days, even when they have been established in dry earth.​

Natural tamarugo forest is NOT highly ordered. In fact the source on this plant informs us that
In local dialect, the Tamarugal Pampa is known as the “Tangled Forest” (Tarapacá), though today this somewhat poetic designation has ironic overtones. The characteristic face of this land is desert and salt. The old chronicles describe the area as densely covered with tamarugo trees, but most of these were felled at the turn of the last century to supply fuel for local mining operations.​
These valuable nitrate mines were the cause of a very bloody war between Chile and Peru 1879 to 1884. Chile won, and annexed the Tarapacá Department from Peru.

Left to themselves these trees absorb dew and mist, and form a tangle of branches, and the name of the region in which the natural forest once flourished even refers to that fact.

Ordered rows of trees are a sign of recent and careful planting. The trees are pruned to allow sheep to find ways through the foliage, to feed on it.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What does that mean?
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Historical transparency may be statements about history you can see through because they have no substance.

KotA is now telling us that the world's rainforests were planted in the remote past by his "see through" advanced civilisation. I have literally never come across a delusion of that kind. What next? The Alps and Himalayas were constructed by ancient pyramid builders using lost technologies? The Earth's atmosphere was discharged from giant cylinders full of Nitrogen and Oxygen, provided by Aliens?

This stuff makes Von Däniken look like a champion of sane and honest scholarship!
 
I was curious because the availability of historic documents on the Web isn't something I think of in connection with historic transparency.
My own interests lie with the development of Roman Britain and Industrial Archaeology along the North Yorkshire Coast and the Cleveland Hills. Very little beyond general interstate is available on the Web.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
I was curious because the availability of historic documents on the Web isn't something I think of in connection with historic transparency.
My own interests lie with the development of Roman Britain and Industrial Archaeology along the North Yorkshire Coast and the Cleveland Hills. Very little beyond general interstate is available on the Web.
Click to expand...

Got coords?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
I was curious because the availability of historic documents on the Web isn't something I think of in connection with historic transparency.
My own interests lie with the development of Roman Britain and Industrial Archaeology along the North Yorkshire Coast and the Cleveland Hills. Very little beyond general interstate is available on the Web.
Click to expand...

What are you looking for, exactly?

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Hey...are you near that location??

Could you date these?
 

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