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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Reality Check said:
23 November 2017: A probable lie since you do not give the sources you checked.

Make me wrong by telling us the sources you checked and get an apology from me - I double dare you :p!
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*sigh*

I looked at many sources, buddy. Look for yourself, there are no yearly budget reports, or place to go to that will yield the CBA for this project, or who designed it...

I've posted several links...this was now- https://books.google.com/books?id=0...chilean government spending, watchdog&f=false
 
Reality Check said:
23 November 2017: A "pre-date modern colonization" delusion since he includes a modern photo of a modern worker, maybe in a Chilean forest.
Plus a persistent lie that the Chilean trees are not dated or that "dating" them will give dates that "pre-date modern colonization": The conquest of Chile began in earnest in 1540 when there was no man-made forests in the desert.
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*In a calm reassuring voice*

"That picture came from the study presented...it is not a modern picture."
 
King of the Americas said:
If you or your judgement mattered, that might be worth listening to.

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I checked every year... Meaning, I went back to the 1960's and looked for a spike in agricultural spending, and I read about the evolution of their economy and the fluctuation of their GDP, as well as how what crops or exports they have used have change.

There is no mention or record of a historic desert tree planting project.
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Show the records you checked or it never happened. I think you are a liar.
 
A inanely irrelevant Google Book search of an entire book

King of the Americas said:
I looked at many sources, buddy.
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Read 48 items of ignorant assertions and fantasies from 9 November 2017 to 22 November 2017 which incudes
22 November 2017: A lie about having no clue about the age of plantations - he has been given many sources on the planting of the Chilean trees starting in the 1960s.
It does not matter what you imagine about Chilean financial records - they planted the forests starting in 1963.

A track record of assertions with no support and even lies in this thread suggests that "looked at many sources" is yet another fantasy or lie. The latter is likely since a Google Book link is not a financial record.
23 November 2017: A inanely irrelevant Google Book search of an entire book!
The book is "The Unidad Popular and the Pinochet Dictatorship: A Political Economy Analysis". The results start with the GDP growth that is commonly available.
 
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King of the Americas said:
If you or your judgement mattered, that might be worth listening to.

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I checked every year... Meaning, I went back to the 1960's and looked for a spike in agricultural spending, and I read about the evolution of their economy and the fluctuation of their GDP, as well as how what crops or exports they have used have change.

There is no mention or record of a historic desert tree planting project.
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I don't believe a damn thing you say. Show your work about 1960s agricultural spending.
 
A delusion that every part of a modern planation is in a 1980 quote with no location

King of the Americas said:
"...10 × 10 m in square formation and 15 × 15 m in triangular..."
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23 November 2017: A delusion that every part of modern planting is in a 1980 quote with no location!
prosopis tamarugo: fodder tree for arid zones was published in 1980 and is about planting before 1980.
CHAPTER 6 - Planting and Management describes tree planting before 1980 and does not state where they were planted.

What is worse:
23 November 2017: Quotes a description of tree planting to support that there was no tree planting :eek:!

23 November 2017: Confirms with silence his delusion that 1963 predates the current civilization.
Will he confirm his delusion with silence about the caption of the second image in CHAPTER 3 - Description?
Panoramic view of Refresco in the Salar de Pintados on the Tamarugal Pampa. Man-made tamarugo plantation established between 1964 and 1969. Visible in the foreground are sectors bordered by tamarugos functioning as windbreaks for, and marking the site of, future plantations.
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Reality Check said:
23 November 2017: A delusion that every part of modern planting is in a 1980 quote with no location!
prosopis tamarugo: fodder tree for arid zones was published in 1980 and is about planting before 1980.
CHAPTER 6 - Planting and Management describes tree planting before 1980 and does not state where they were planted.

What is worse:
23 November 2017: Quotes a description of tree planting to support that there was no tree planting :eek:!

23 November 2017: Confirms with silence his delusion that 1963 predates the current civilization.
Will he confirm his delusion with silence about the caption of the second image in CHAPTER 3 - Description?
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A dog as dumb as you would be a cat.

Here's the photograph in question...see clearly the FULLY matured trees???
 

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A lie that my post was about the age of trees

King of the Americas said:
Here's the photograph in question...see clearly the FULLY matured trees???
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23 November 2017: A lie that my post was about the age of trees.
Will he confirm his delusion with silence about the caption of the second image in CHAPTER 3 - Description?

My post was that the caption of the photograph states "Man-made tamarugo plantation established between 1964 and 1969" and would KOTA repeat a delusion by silence. The answer is:
23 November 2017: Confirms with silence his delusion that 1963 and "1964 and 1969" predates the current civilization.

23 November 2017: A delusion of seeing "FULLY matured trees" when all we can see are well separated blobs.

There are growth charts on the page KOTA has date delusions about (CHAPTER 4 - Growth and Productivity). The "AGE/CROWN DIAMETER RATIO BY SPACING" chart for 10x10 and 13x13 gives crown diameters of ~8 and ~9 m at 16 years. But the trees in the image have a separation of roughly the crown diameter - they are HALF mature and planted about 8 or 9 years before the photograph was taken.
 
48 items of ignorant assertions and fantasies from 9 November 2017 to 22 November 2017

  1. 22 November 2017: The cost of seedlings for planting 1 million trees a year would be about $500,000 dollars per year (GDP of 4 billon dollars in 1960 and rising!)
  2. 23 November 2017: Cannot understand the contents of a 1991 paper.
  3. 22 November 2017: A lie about having no clue about the age of plantations - he has been given many sources on the planting of the Chilean trees starting in the 1960s.
  4. 23 November 2017: A lie that he even read the Chilean historical financial record (no sources given).
  5. 23 November 2017: A delusion that this is not "modern" planting because the 1960s onward are modern.
  6. 23 November 2017: A delusion of "director, project designer, lead engineer" not existing when the Chilean agencies promoting the planting have been provided to him.
  7. 23 November 2017: Double idiocy - no citation and what looks like a nursery manual about growing from seed to seedlings.
  8. 23 November 2017: A lie that the forests have not been dated - the Chilean planting started in 1963 as he knows.
  9. 23 November 2017: Repeats his delusion that modern forests dating from 1963 are evidence of a "previous civilization was that of advanced agriculture"
  10. 23 November 2017: A lie of having photographs from 1963 when the Chilean tree planting started [turns out to be an undated image in a 1980 document].
  11. 23 November 2017: A probable lie since he does not give the sources he checked for Chilean financial records.
  12. 23 November 2017: A "pre-date modern colonization" delusion since he includes a modern [1960's?] photo of a modern [1960's?] worker, maybe in a Chilean forest.
  13. 23 November 2017: A inanely irrelevant Google Book search of an entire book!
  14. 23 November 2017: A delusion that every part of modern planting is in a 1980 quote with no location!
  15. 23 November 2017: Quotes a description of tree planting to support that there was no tree planting :eye-poppi!
  16. 23 November 2017: Confirms with silence his delusion that 1963 predates the current civilization.
  17. 23 November 2017: A lie that my post was about the age of trees.
  18. 23 November 2017: Confirms with silence his delusion that 1963 and "1964 and 1969" predates the current civilization.
  19. 23 November 2017: A delusion of seeing "FULLY matured trees" when all we can see are well separated blobs (a little analysis suggests 8 or 9 years old).
 
King of the Americas said:
If you or your judgement mattered, that might be worth listening to.

---

I checked every year... Meaning, I went back to the 1960's and looked for a spike in agricultural spending, and I read about the evolution of their economy and the fluctuation of their GDP, as well as how what crops or exports they have used have change.

There is no mention or record of a historic desert tree planting project.
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Why would you expect a spike in spending? That's not actually how budgets work.
 
Roboramma said:
Why would you expect a spike in spending? That's not actually how budgets work.
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There is also the double ignorance of expecting any country to have its detailed financial records from 1963 onward online.

Look at Financial Statements of the Government of New Zealand. The statement for the 3 months ending October is a whopping 15 pages long. There are no specific projects listed at all. The smallest number looks to be tens of millions when we are talking about 100,000s.

Why should any government waste time and money digitizing and putting online financial records from 54 years ago?
 
King of the Americas said:
1. STOP using the date 12,000 with this site, as I have not dated any of these forests.

2. Francisco Araya was the agronomist & officer in charge of field operations....??? I asked who was the project's director, designer, and lead engineer... Did you not find it odd that these things were inaccessible? Where's the test results to justify the expenditure? Where are the blueprints and layouts of other potential sites? Who decided this site- one person, a board, the Chilean Government? What Act or Law brought about its construction, and what was the projected cost? In America, these things would be easy to find...the third world, South American version has less demanding transparency standards, sadly.

Ignore request!?

Fulfilled.
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You are now telling us that a mass of information is unavailable because the reaforestation never took place? But if that is so, the agronomist I named must be part of the scam. Are you saying he is, and his alleged participation is all lies?

Your "Yankee imperialist" deprecation of the "third world" is noted, as the tree planting procedures look reasonable to me. If you were given the detail about designers and engineers you seek, you would ask continuously for yet more.

Already the authenticity of the 1960s programme is overwhelmingly demonstrated.

If you won't date the project to 12,000 BP (or any other time), what is the point of all this quibbling, in relation to your ancient advanced civilisation fantasy? Are you now saying that there was an advanced civilisation worldwide in the 1960s? If so, I concur.
 
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King of the Americas said:
*sigh*

I looked at many sources, buddy. Look for yourself, there are no yearly budget reports, or place to go to that will yield the CBA for this project, or who designed it...

I've posted several links...this was now- https://books.google.com/books?id=0...chilean government spending, watchdog&f=false
Click to expand...

Have you contacted the Chilean government? They might just have the kinds of records you are looking for.

It would seem like an obvious first step to me, but I'm no historian, so what do I know?
 
So, once again: if these forests were planted and abandoned centuries ago, how come all the trees are still in a perfect grid pattern with clear, well maintained roads in between?
That's not how forests work when left to their own devices
 
Porpoise of Life said:
So, once again: if these forests were planted and abandoned centuries ago, how come all the trees are still in a perfect grid pattern with clear, well maintained roads in between?
That's not how forests work when left to their own devices
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That's the way things work in deserts...

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They are planted 45 feet apart and their growth is directly associated with the water they receive.
 

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Reality Check said:
There is also the double ignorance of expecting any country to have its detailed financial records from 1963 onward online.

Look at Financial Statements of the Government of New Zealand. The statement for the 3 months ending October is a whopping 15 pages long. There are no specific projects listed at all. The smallest number looks to be tens of millions when we are talking about 100,000s.

Why should any government waste time and money digitizing and putting online financial records from 54 years ago?
Click to expand...

Historic Transparency.
 
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