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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

John Jones said:
And invent any preposterous back story to explain them.
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I think the global artificial forests ARE evidence that the previous civilization was that of advanced agriculture.

The Chilean leadership likely claimed ownership, in order to build confidence in a shaky government.

The people who planted these and the other orchards were advanced at the agricultural arts.
 
King of the Americas said:
The cost of planting millions upon million of seeds or seedlings, and keeping them watered until established, for Chile, in the 1960's, 1970's, 1980's, or the 1990's...is not evidenced in their historical financial record.
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How would you know? You've never checked any historical financial record. Your only attempt at providing evidence that the Chilean government never paid for any tree plantation was a reference to the phrase 'agrarian reform' in some PDF about Chilean economic reforms.

You've never provided any financial records or budget breakdowns. You simply assert that such spending didn't exist but you've never even attempted to show that such spending didn't exist.

No pictures exist of the vast hydration system that would have been necessary, nor pictures of seedlings or scientists measuring growth...surely a country investing in such a project would want its progress documented???
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Again, how would you know? You've never looked for any such pictures. Your record in this thread shows that you can't or won't do the most basic of attempts to find information on any of the stuff you've found. You won't use Google to find stuff that can be found in a few seconds, yet you're making all sorts of oddball declarations of fact (and even more hilariously, attempting to ask in an Internet forum thread, for people to carbon date stuff, do tree ring analysis, etc.) This is just pathetic.

Who was the director, project designer, lead engineer?

You can't find this information because this is not a modern creation.
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You don't have this information because you can't even be bothered to use Google to search for it. I don't give a **** who was in charge of the project. I've no reason to think it never happened. It's you who is scraping the bottom of the barrel coming up with excuses for your bizarre fantasy of conspiratorial fake tree plantations. You look for the information and tell us what you find.

The answer is nothing, not because the information doesn't exist, but because you haven't and won't make any attempt to find the information.

You're just doing what a lot of fringists do when their fantasies have been exposed, just kick it up a notch into full blown troll mode out of pure spite. You're just arguing anything now for the sake of arguing with your critics.
 
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King of the Americas said:
BEHIND the single planter...

Because it shows these are FULLY FORMED trees when these pictures were taken.

They were NOT planted in this manner at this time.
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I don't think that they are obviously fully formed trees, but even if, so what? Trees are known to grow to maturity with no human intervention.
 
Unbelievable.
You've just shown exactly how they did it...with photographs!

King of the Americas said:
BEHIND the single planter...

Because it shows these are FULLY FORMED trees when these pictures were taken.

They were NOT planted in this manner at this time.
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And?
These forests were planted over the past 50 years.
By the time of the document they quote they had already being doing this for a decade or so.

In addition, we can't tell much about the dark grey smudgy line in the background of that photo, or when exactly it was taken.
 
JesseCuster said:
How would you know? You've never checked any historical financial record. Your only attempt at providing evidence that the Chilean government never paid for any tree plantation was a reference to the phrase 'agrarian reform' in some PDF about Chilean economic reforms.

You've never provided any financial records or budget breakdowns. You simply assert that such spending didn't exist but you've never even attempted to show that such spending didn't exist.

Again, how would you know? You've never looked for any such pictures. Your record in this thread shows that you can't or won't do the most basic of attempts to find information on any of the stuff you've found. You won't use Google to find stuff that can be found in a few seconds, yet you're making all sorts of oddball declarations of fact (and even more hilariously, attempting to ask in an Internet forum thread, for people to carbon date stuff, do tree ring analysis, etc.) This is just pathetic.

You don't have this information because you can't even be bothered to use Google to search for it. I don't give a **** who was in charge of the project. I've no reason to think it never happened. It's you who is scraping the bottom of the barrel coming up with excuses for your bizarre fantasy of conspiratorial fake tree plantations. You look for the information and tell us what you find.

The answer is nothing, not because the information doesn't exist, but because you haven't and won't make any attempt to find the information.

You're just doing what a lot of fringists do when their fantasies have been exposed, just kick it up a notch into full blown troll mode out of pure spite. You're just arguing anything now for the sake of arguing with your critics.
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Objection: Speculation

You have no idea what I have and have not researched.
 
John Jones said:
I don't think that they are obviously fully formed trees, but even if, so what? Trees are known to grow to maturity with no human intervention.
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Objection: Speaking to evidence not in the record

This is an artificial forest, that is photographed, fully formed and mature, at the time it is said to have been planted.
 
Tolls said:
Unbelievable.
You've just shown exactly how they did it...with photographs!



And?
These forests were planted over the past 50 years.
By the time of the document they quote they had already being doing this for a decade or so.

In addition, we can't tell much about the dark grey smudgy line in the background of that photo, or when exactly it was taken.
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I showed how it was CLAIMED to have been done, with pictures of it already completed and matured.

*The infrastructure required to build the entire plantation in the way it is proposed does not exist, in their financial record.
 
King of the Americas said:
Objection: Speaking to evidence not in the record
[...]
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Let me get this straight, Perry Mason: Are you claiming that trees are not known to grow to maturity without human intervention? That was the only thing I spoke to in that post.

BTW, your strategy of proof by repeated assertion is ineffective.
 
King of the Americas said:
I showed how it was CLAIMED to have been done, with pictures of it already completed and matured.

*The infrastructure required to build the entire plantation in the way it is proposed does not exist, in their financial record.
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Which financial records did you check, and how do we know you really checked? You haven't got a good track record.
 
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He didn't directly quote me (probably because he has me on ignore) but it seems like he was kinda replying to me so I'll reply back:

SOdhner said:
Considering these trees don't live long enough to have been planted by any of the "lost civilizations" he's proposed, why does he think they're relevant at all?
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King of the Americas said:
I think the global artificial forests ARE evidence that the previous civilization was that of advanced agriculture.
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But the trees don't live long enough to be relevant to any of the supposed "lost civilizations" you've been talking about. Not even close. Multiple people have pointed this out to you. If these are the great-great-(etc)-grandchildren of the original trees, why are they still in a nice grid?

SOdhner said:
Assuming they are older than official sources state, why in the world would anyone bother to start a conspiracy to obscure their origin and why wouldn't anyone say "No, what are you talking about, those have always been here!" and maybe even provide photos?
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King of the Americas said:
The Chilean leadership likely claimed ownership, in order to build confidence in a shaky government.
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How would lying about planting a bunch of trees that the locals would have known were already there build confidence in the government? That doesn't come even close to making sense.

SOdhner said:
If it's so hard to plant this many trees, why was it so easy for whoever he thinks did do it? Where did they get all these local tree saplings, if they came from overseas? Why did they only plant local trees at all these different places? Why did they plant the trees at all?
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King of the Americas said:
The people who planted these and the other orchards were advanced at the agricultural arts.
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That's circular reasoning. You're saying the trees are proof of the people, and you know the people could have done it because of the trees. And you didn't explain why in the world they would go to all this trouble, why they only used local plants, etc.
 
King of the Americas said:
Objection: Speculation

You have no idea what I have and have not researched.
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No, I've a really good idea of what you've research. You have made grandiose claims about Chilean budget allocations and have provided zero evidence to back it up.

When pushed for evidence, you made a laughable attempt at arguing that the phrase 'agrarian reform' in a PDF document that was a brief overview of Chilean economic reforms was your evidence that nothing was spent. The fact that you desperately resorted to such a pathetic attempt at providing evidence is in fact evidence that you have nothing in the way of evidence relating to actual Chilean government spending on tree plantations.

You have simply tried to bluster your way through claims about what was and wasn't possible, what it would have cost ("untold billions" was your vague and unsubstantiated claim).

Prove me wrong. Show me a breakdown of the budget of the relevant Chilean government department or agency that would have been responsible for the tree plantation. You won't do it. You've got nothing.

Like I said, you're just arguing for the sake of arguing now, dumping any and all crud you can find on Google Earth on the thread. Whether this is just trolling or an attempt to Gish Gallop your way to some sort of argumentative victory is not obvious. Either way, it really doesn't come across well for you.
 
@KotA Please explain what your illustrated response #1377 to my last post is all about. Do you deny the sources I have cited confirming the existence of a tree planting programme in the period under discussion? If you don't, what is the point of the material in your response?

As I have stated, this is simply a collection of irrelevant nonsense from you, as you no longer have anything sensible to tell us.
 
How advanced do you have to be to put a seen in a hole?

Nature has been growing entire continents full of trees for many millions of years.

Ancient Rome had a huge industry planting millions of Olive trees in plantations all across the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago, how advanced were they?
 
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John Jones said:
Which financial records did you check, and how do we know you really checked? You haven't got a good track record.
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If you or your judgement mattered, that might be worth listening to.

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I checked every year... Meaning, I went back to the 1960's and looked for a spike in agricultural spending, and I read about the evolution of their economy and the fluctuation of their GDP, as well as how what crops or exports they have used have change.

There is no mention or record of a historic desert tree planting project.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
How advanced do you have to be to put a seen in a hole?

Nature has been growing entire continents full of trees for many millions of years.

Ancient Rome had a huge industry planting millions of Olive trees in plantations all across the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago, how advanced were they?
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Do it 8 million times, and let me know how long it would take. Dig ONE hole as demonstrated...estimate your time and cost, then multiple that by 9 million.
 
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