Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[Oystein]

It's politically correct to say that. Almost a political necessity.

But for critical thinkers concerned with getting at the truth, it's a load of nonsense. Nobody inherently deserves to be believed. They deserve to be believed only if they're believable.

I think he understands that, in the past, women who considered accusing a man of sexual impropriety faced a high likelihood that they would run into straight denial, i.e. a culture that, as default position, disbelieves them. This kept many/most women's mouth shut - and that was/is a terrible situation.

I understand Franken as advovating that the null hypothesis ought to be to believe them, unless evidence to the contrary surfaces, and not to disbelieve them, unless they have corroborating evidence.

 

[Oystein]

I do not believe either of them needed practicing tongue kisses. Or any kissing.

Are you a stage actor so you know if rehearsal was or was not needed?

And here you go again, just after saying there might or might not have been a tongue involved, you post as if there was.

By golly, your reading and parsing skills need some heavy assistance! Here, I highlighted the important bit. You read only half of it. What I said I believe ("neither needed practice") applies to BOTH cases "with tongue" and "without tongue", and I very specifically and deliberately added "or any kiss" to include, cover, consider, offer the "no tongue" option.

Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough even for you.

Now need I be an actor to be able to judge whether kissing for a OSU skit required practice, practice and more intense practice? Hell no! It wasn't the climax scene of a Shakespear play, it was a simple, silly OSU skit!

That's why ... [snipped and indeed didn't even read all that follows false premise]

False premise is false.

 

[Oystein]

So she can joke grope men but no one can joke grope her?

Not off-stage, no.

ETA
I'll give you a rather extreme example:
Bachelor's Farewell night of one of my best friends. I didn't organize the thing, and I would not have done this, but, hey, it was a BF - we went to a table dance club. And yes, we did the things men do in such clubs: Tip dancers for sexy moves. And I tipped well.
I was groped - more, much more than I expected, and no, she did not ask my permission first.
My dress shirt ended up torn - I most definitely did not expect or allow that!


Here are two simple facts:
1. It was perfectly ok on stage - we all had a hoot
2. If any woman ever does that to me off stage, I'll sue the living hell out of her.


Get it?

 

[acbytesla]

How about let's put this a different way, Franken has been an activist for women for decades, exposing O'Reilly and the sweatshops and forced abortions on Saipan.

Rose, OTOH, displayed overt sexism when he interviewed Clinton. He interrupted almost every one of her answers. It was difficult to watch and I've never seen him do that with male guests. In addition, people have come forward and said 'everyone knew' about Rose.

Franken's current coworkers and past SNL coworkers have come forward to say they never saw any such behavior.

I never saw Rose interview Hillary. I also can't say I've watched him on the morning show either where I guess he dropped a lot of sexual innuendo. My memories are of him conducting some excellent interviews. I always liked him. Now I'm left thinking he was a pig.

Franken seems to me as someone who became known through his comedy and as such you might expect some outrageous behavior. But he has ALWAYS had a serious side having graduated from Harvard. He also has demonstrated that he is someone who cares about others. Everything I know about Al Franken tells me that he is a good man and neither of these accusations/incidents makes we waiver from that belief in the slightest. Now if information came to light that is significantly worse then I would have to reevaluate.

 

[Oystein]

There you go again, assuming the accusations are true and the perceptions valid.

Going to tell me in the next post you never said that?

I absolutely stand by that: Yes, as a matter of principle, my base assumption is that women do not lie through their teeth. As a matter of principle, when a women reports a sexually loaded incident that made her feel uncomfortable, my null hypothesis is to believe - at the very minimum - that she is honest about her recollection and her perception.

That does NOT mean I automatically condemn the accused - he (or she) deserves to be heard, of course, and conflicting accounts to be weighed.

But I sense you have not yet grasped the historical shift that's happening: That women are beginning to be empowered to accuse, and be taken serious.

You know the old saying: Don't ascribe to malice that which can be easily be explained by incompetence?
Well, I say, analogously: Don't ascribe to malice an accusation that may just as well be true.

Just don't ascribe malice. Until you can prove malice. (And I know who will quote this, hooting with glee)


I forgot who it was who, very validly, explained that people do not have a right to not be offended.
I say that I believe that Tweeden is honestly offended, and I believe that Franken did something (two things, actually) that were offensive to Tweeden. Sorry, I believe that.
BUT.
This is a tempest in a tea cup. This is a matter between her and Franken. The entire issue could end here.


If only it weren't for Franken being a politician who has a very explicit agenda of lifting women's rights, who made a career of respecting women. If this incident, and others which are merely offensive, shed a revealing light on Franken - that his respect for women is conditional, or even fake, that has political implications.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I never saw Rose interview Hillary. I also can't say I've watched him on the morning show either where I guess he dropped a lot of sexual innuendo. My memories are of him conducting some excellent interviews. I always liked him. Now I'm left thinking he was a pig.

Franken seems to me as someone who became known through his comedy and as such you might expect some outrageous behavior. But he has ALWAYS had a serious side having graduated from Harvard. He also has demonstrated that he is someone who cares about others. Everything I know about Al Franken tells me that he is a good man and neither of these accusations/incidents makes we waiver from that belief in the slightest. Now if information came to light that is significantly worse then I would have to reevaluate.

Very well, we will mark you down as "sympathizer" then.

No, no...before you even say it: #yesallmen

:9

 

[Oystein]

What standard of Franken's is that? He has apologized for the grope joke.

Exactly! It's the standard by which Franken decided that he ought to apologize. He did not weigh first whether Tweeden may have a lower standard, or even a double standard, he simply used his own

You cannot say with certainty that Tweeden's recollection is correct.

And yet, Franken, using his own, higher standard, apologized for his behaviour at the rehearsal, despite remembering it differently, and again, he did not take into consideration Tweeden's behaviour elsewhere, and did not calculate whether he could get away with a lower standard. Like a man of principles, he employed his own standards.

 

[Oystein]

Uh yeah, and so is Franken a professional entertainer.

I struggle to see how that even begins to address what you quoted. It looks an awful lot like a cheap tu quoque, with a dash of whataboutism.

As for the rest of your post, should we assume no men will object to being groped?

This, in its unqualified nakedness, is a strawman I feel offended by.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Exactly! It's the standard by which Franken decided that he ought to apologize. He did not weigh first whether Tweeden may have a lower standard, or even a double standard, he simply used his own


And yet, Franken, using his own, higher standard, apologized for his behaviour at the rehearsal, despite remembering it differently, and again, he did not take into consideration Tweeden's behaviour elsewhere, and did not calculate whether he could get away with a lower standard. Like a man of principles, he employed his own standards.

It is also possible that he is aware of social trends and is doing the "correct" dance for the tune that has been called.

 

[Oystein]

I miss Hitch.

I often disagreed with him, but I so much valued his opinion and how articulate his discourse was.

I tend to disagree with you more often than not, but not on that.

 

[Oystein]

How about let's put this a different way, Franken has been an activist for women for decades, exposing ...

How is that even an argument?

We have heard of right-wing bigots fighting their entire career against homosexuality, only to be found head-down-arse-up with a boy toy.

So what makes you so sure Franken's activism for women isn't similarly a way to deal with personal shame?

 

[Oystein]

It is also possible that he is aware of social trends and is doing the "correct" dance for the tune that has been called.

Call it "new standards" instead of "social trends", and we are almost in agreement.
Yes, sure, could be he is a creep and only pretends that standard. It's nonetheless the standard I go by.

 

[acbytesla]

Very well, we will mark you down as "sympathizer" then.

No, no...before you even say it: #yesallmen

:9

Oh NONSENSE. Real sexual harassment should be exposed for what it is and absolutely needs to be addressed. But not every accusation and complaint is equal. I'm not defending every man. I have always liked Charlie Rose and Louis CK as well as countless movies made by Weinstein and Spacey but they deserved their fates.

 

[acbytesla]

I tend to disagree with you more often than not, but not on that.

Well, that's something.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Call it "new standards" instead of "social trends", and we are almost in agreement.
Yes, sure, could be he is a creep and only pretends that standard. It's nonetheless the standard I go by.

Or he could be not a creep at all, but still doing the dance since it will bypass a lot of unnecessary aggravations for him.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Oh NONSENSE. Real sexual harassment should be exposed for what it is and absolutely needs to be addressed. But not every accusation and complaint is equal. I'm not defending every man. I have always liked Charlie Rose and Louis CK as well as countless movies made by Weinstein and Spacey but they deserved their fates.

I agree and sorry for the Poe.

More satire: "Real" sexual harrassment? Let me guess, that's like "legitimate" rape, huh?

Seems like these days the gaming of the cause seems to be in full swing before the actual cause has even gotten started (this is an actual sincere statement, btw).

 

[The Big Dog]

Oh man, two women who complained about a liberal icon are getting *********** steamrolled in this thread by the partisan bus.

 

[Craig4]

I don't think Roy Moore is fit to serve in the Senate and I'm starting to think Franken isn't either. I haven't read much on the second accuser but it doesn't look good. I suspect both parties can come up with perfectly good candidates who have never assaulted women. Seems a reasonable, minimum standard.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Oh man, two women who complained about a liberal icon are getting *********** steamrolled in this thread by the partisan bus.

Wow. I just heard thousands of ironymeters explode everywhere..

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I don't think Roy Moore is fit to serve in the Senate and I'm starting to think Franken isn't either. I haven't read much on the second accuser but it doesn't look good. I suspect both parties can come up with perfectly good candidates who have never assaulted women. Seems a reasonable, minimum standard.

I think there's at least a respectable percentage of females this is true of. We have been assured to no end, however, that no such male exists.