Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[King of the Americas]

The Soviet Union wasn't a free democratic republic either yet they managed to oversee lots of large scale expensive projects - space programmes, nuclear missile programmes, etc. You're not proving anything by this. The fact that a government isn't free and democratic does not render them incapable of carrying out large scale projects. Again, what are you talking about?

You've said a lot of things. I'm not interested in what you can merely say, I'm interested in what you can prove. And you haven't even tried to prove that the Chilean government was incapable of undertaking such a project. You've merely expressed disbelief at the concept.

You seem to be arguing that what you said was true because you said it. You can't prove your claims by merely pointing out that you have previously asserted the claim.

You can only believe that, if you have not employed the links I have provided.

*A corrupt government teetering on collapse says it plants millions of trees in the desert, without raising taxes, or reducing unemployment, and YOU JUST SWALLOW that...???

Yup...THAT ladies and gents is willful intellectual dishonesty...

 

[Reality Check]

The irrelevant idiocy of wanting to date trees on island(s)

I don't now about 12,000 years, but I'd LOVE to date this island:

That is an uninhabited Japanese island called Tori-shima. The next post is about "core ring samples" so we have
22 November 2017: The irrelevant idiocy of wanting to date trees on island(s).
This will not support your delusion of a globally connected civilization 12,000 years ago:

• The oldest dated tree in the world (Great Basin bristlecone pine, Inyo County, California, United States) is 5,067 years old.
• The average lifetime of a tree is a century or less.
• Trees outside of temperate climates with distinctive seasons do not have rings!
  Rings are a result of growth rates changing due to distinct seasons.

 

[Reality Check]

Irrelevant images of what looks like modern forestry

Here:

22 November 2017: Irrelevant and idiotic (no hint of research) images of what looks like modern forestry.
There must be many, many images of modern forests in Google Earth - are we going to have the idiocy of every one of them being posted here?

 

[King of the Americas]

...
This will not support your delusion of a globally connected civilization 12,000 years ago:
...
[/LIST]

*In a hushed whispered tone*

I am not saying these are 12,000 years old.

 

[Reality Check]

An irrelevant image of an "Oak Island" with a "II"

Oak Island II...?

22 November 2017: An irrelevant image of an "Oak Island" with a "II"

 

[Reality Check]

An irrelevant "Abandoned Farms of Africa" image

Abandoned Farms of Africa:

22 November 2017: An irrelevant "Abandoned Farms of Africa" image.

 

[JesseCuster]

You can only believe that, if you have not employed the links I have provided.

*A corrupt government teetering on collapse says it plants millions of trees in the desert, without raising taxes, or reducing unemployment, and YOU JUST SWALLOW that...???

Yup...THAT ladies and gents is willful intellectual dishonesty...

Every time you're asked for evidence that the Chilean government didn't and couldn't have created that plantation, you just come up with more fact-free reasons.

First it was because the budget didn't show any allocations for tree planting. A claim you haven't even tried to substantiate.

Later you claimed it was because the government wasn't free and democratic, therefore it couldn't have undertaken such a project, even though unfree and undemocratic governments undertake and complete all sorts of huge expensive projects all the time.

Now it's because they were a government 'teetering on collapse' and that they couldn't have done the project without raising taxes or reducing unemployment? You've yet to demonstrate that raising taxes would have been necessary (hint: not everything done by a government that costs money involves raising taxes, I'll see if you can figure out why) or reducing unemployment (again, not every project undertaken by a government reduces the overall unemployment rate). You haven't shown what the budget was, whether or not it needed a tax increase to pay for it, how many people were employed in the project, whether or not they were hired anew for the project, what unemployment was before and after the project was undertaken, etc.

This is just more ad hoc fact free assertions. Why don't you try backing up this stuff with some facts? Actual facts, not some irrelevant PDF you found via Google with no applicable facts and figures.

 

[Reality Check]

An ignorant "Which part is modern day replanting" from an image question

Which part is modern day replanting?

22 November 2017: An ignorant "Which part is modern day replanting" from an image question.
No one can tell the date of a tree planation from an image because they are generally used over and over again. A pine planation is planted say in the 1920's (the Great Depression here was a period when the government planted a lot of forests to provide jobs). 30 years later the trees are harvested and replanted (1950's). 30 years later the trees are harvested and replanted (1980's). About now the trees have harvested and replanted.

 

[King of the Americas]

...

No.

 

[Reality Check]

A post of ignorant delusions ,e.g. that the Pacific Ocean was empty

Google Earth Lines- SPECULATION(s)

22 November 2017: A post of ignorant delusions ,e.g. that the Pacific Ocean was empty!
The Google Earth lines are either hundreds of feet high undersea ridges on the sea floor or image artefacts.

 

[Reality Check]

Each location has its own population of different types of trees.

Irrelevant and incomplete !
You missed out

• different types of trees in one location,
• trees growing at different rates,
• the possibility of replanting of some trees at a location.

None of this makes a delusion of modern tree planting being done 12,000 years ago any less deluded.

 

[John Jones]

For the love of empirically collected data- LOOK FOR YOURSELF!

Look where? You provided no evidence.

 

[Andy_Ross]

22 November 2017: An ignorant "Which part is modern day replanting" from an image question.
No one can tell the date of a tree planation from an image because they are generally used over and over again. A pine planation is planted say in the 1920's (the Great Depression here was a period when the government planted a lot of forests to provide jobs). 30 years later the trees are harvested and replanted (1950's). 30 years later the trees are harvested and replanted (1980's). About now the trees have harvested and replanted.

A lot of the trees on the escarpment to the south of Guisborough where the land rises steeply up from the town to the moors were planted by the Forestry Commission in the 60s to improve the appearance of the hillsides that were covered in spoil heaps from ironstone mining from the 19th and early 20th century, Jet mining from the 19th and old Alum Shale quarries from the 18th and early 19th centuries. These trees are currently being cropped in sections, each cropped section is allowed to stand clear for one season then they are replanting but rather than pine for cash cropping broadleaf harwoods are being put in to make a 'recreational' forest.

 

[John Jones]

You can only believe that, if you have not employed the links I have provided.

*A corrupt government teetering on collapse says it plants millions of trees in the desert, without raising taxes, or reducing unemployment, and YOU JUST SWALLOW that...???

Yup...THAT ladies and gents is willful intellectual dishonesty...

Intellectual dishonesty is you making all these ludicrous claims with no sane evidence.

 

[John Jones]

*In a hushed whispered tone*

I am not saying these are 12,000 years old.

How old do you claim they are?

 

[John Jones]

...

Oh hell yes.

 

[Andy_Ross]

How old do you claim they are?

Older than the people that planted them say.

 

[King of the Americas]

22 November 2017: A post of ignorant delusions ,e.g. that the Pacific Ocean was empty!
The Google Earth lines are either hundreds of feet high undersea ridges on the sea floor or image artefacts.

What if they are just the closest distance between two ocean points...!?

 

[Reality Check]

A probable lie of "Researching Government Budgets", etc

1. Researching Government Budgets- The places I have chosen weren't and aren't capable is such agricultural feats.

2. Addressing the Historical Record- Re-planting is a modern notion. The first lumberjacks to hit North America took all, and left few if any in their reach.

22 November 2017: A probable lie of "Researching Government Budgets".
22 November 2017: A delusion that only governments plant trees (I live in a country where private forestry is an significant industry)?
This is 1 America company planting trees: Weyerhaeuser

Weyerhaeuser (pronounced "Warehouser"[5]) is one of the world's largest private owners of timberlands. It owns more than 13 million acres of timberlands, primarily in the U.S., and manages another 14 million acres under long-term licenses in Canada.

22 November 2017: A probable lie of "Addressing the Historical Record".
22 November 2017: A delusion that North American forestry techniques have not ever changed?

A real world fact for KOTA to ignore or deny: in 2010, Weyerhaeuser reported planting 50 million seedlings.[4]
In 1 year a single company planted more tree seedlings than all of the trees planted in the Chilean areas KOTA thinks were planted 12,000 years ago and were actually planted from the 1960's to today over a period of 60 years.

 

[King of the Americas]

How old do you claim they are?

I have no clue...