Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Tolls]

I don't now about 12,000 years, but I'd LOVE to date this island:

Lat. 27°52'1.67"N
Long. 128°13'52.82"E

You have heard of this thing called Google, haven't you?

You could, say, look up some of this stuff.

For example:
http://english.ryukyushimpo.jp/2011/07/20/1950/

Which says:

July 29 (2011) marks 52 years since the entire population of Iwo-Tori-shima (formerly Gushikawa Village, currently Kumejima Town) were forced to leave the island due to a volcanic eruption.

So, yes, ruins...but not quite as old as you think.

Funnily enough, the island was also (and maybe still?) used for extracting sulphur.

Are we now going to move onto mining areas that have since closed down?

 

[Tolls]

By comparing tree copy sizes...

I am posting pictures of artificial forests, who's planting far pre-dates its modern occupants.

Some have been very remote islands with sparse populations.

And we have (for example with the Cook Islands one) shown you how wrong you are.

And what on earth is "comparing tree copy sizes"?

I would say "you're just making things up now", but you've essentially been doing that from the start.

 

[Tolls]

I also see your strategy is shifting a bit.
You seem to be posting random photos with no coordinates for any of us to check on.

You're not trying to avoid criticism are you?

 

[King of the Americas]

Google Earth Lines- SPECULATION(s)

Debris discarded by ships on common trade routes, both old and new?

Tracks left by Atlantean ocean floor crawlers?

Old anchor marks, again from ancient and modern common trade routes?

Old roads, from a time when there was no water in the oceans?

Modern radar inputs about the ocean, more detailed than their surroundings, along the afore mentioned paths?

Oceanic floor anomalies with weird consistencies?

Techtonic plate intersections?

Underwater mummies hoarding together dragging their bandages?

The ghosts of my ancestors infecting Google Earth to point me to ancient advanced agriculture?

A vast conspiracy formulated by Mr. Rogers who had this entire agenda hidden inside that Trolly?

---

I have no evidence and no verifiable or testable theory as to what or how these lines came to be. I only know that by following them, I found evidences, MANY MANY that suggest our ancestors were MUCH better at agriculture than we are.

Advanced?

Yes, comparatively speaking.

 

[SOdhner]

Google Earth Lines- SPECULATION(s)

Debris discarded by ships on common trade routes, both old and new?

Tracks left by Atlantean ocean floor crawlers?

Old anchor marks, again from ancient and modern common trade routes?

Old roads, from a time when there was no water in the oceans?

Modern radar inputs about the ocean, more detailed than their surroundings, along the afore mentioned paths?

Oceanic floor anomalies with weird consistencies?

Techtonic plate intersections?

Underwater mummies hoarding together dragging their bandages?

The ghosts of my ancestors infecting Google Earth to point me to ancient advanced agriculture?

A vast conspiracy formulated by Mr. Rogers who had this entire agenda hidden inside that Trolly?

I know most(?) of those are jokes but at this point I couldn't hazard a guess as to which ones, since your genuine theories are every bit as implausible as the wildest fake theory I could come up with.

 

[King of the Americas]

And we have (for example with the Cook Islands one) shown you how wrong you are.

And what on earth is "comparing tree copy sizes"?

I would say "you're just making things up now", but you've essentially been doing that from the start.

BWAAAA HAAA HAAA! "...shown me I am wrong." Balderdash!

Each location has its own population of different types of trees. The oldest of each tree will naturally have the widest canopy. In the photograph in question, the central grove has tree tops in excess of 40 feet wide, and then other of varying widths.

I'd say...

"ALL of you are ignoring a poop-ton of evidence."

 

[JesseCuster]

I need people in places to take some core ring samples...

You need a basic course in the fundamentals of critical thinking.

 

[King of the Americas]

I also see your strategy is shifting a bit.
You seem to be posting random photos with no coordinates for any of us to check on.

You're not trying to avoid criticism are you?

Maybe I should write a book and keep some of these finds secret until then!?

 

[SOdhner]

Maybe I should write a book and keep some of these finds secret until then!?

I'd love to see that book. Photos of modern forests and concentric circles and carved stones, and then a summary section that says "See? Everything is Atlantis!" without any actual explanation or justification.

 

[King of the Americas]

You need a basic course in the fundamentals of critical thinking.

Please...do...go on about my error(s). I'd LOVE to hear your constructive criticism.

 

[JesseCuster]

1. Researching Government Budgets- The places I have chosen weren't and aren't capable is such agricultural feats.

But you've done no such research. You know it and we know it. You haven't even pretended to present any evidence that you've done such research. All you've done is assert some made up stuff that Chilean government would have spent "untold billions" on the tree plantation, which is a made up number with no basis in fact, and you've done no research into what the actual budget was and how much was or wasn't paid for it. You're just making stuff up.

Who exactly do you think you're thinking fooling by claiming that you've done any research into government budgets for afforestation projects?

What research did you into this? C'mon, present your research. Nobody believes that you've done such a thing. Prove it.

2. Addressing the Historical Record- Re-planting is a modern notion. The first lumberjacks to hit North America took all, and left few if any in their reach.

You think that modern tree plantations aren't modern because replanting is a modern idea? WTF are you talking about?

*Objection- Speculation: You have no idea if these are modern day forestry.

Yes we do gave an idea. People have shown evidence in this thread that the Chilean tree plantation was a Chilean government project dating from the 1960s. You simply choose to outright reject anything that says so.

All you've done is scoff at the evidence because you want to pretend that you're doing super duper research into ancient forests. It's laughable.

 

[Tolls]

BWAAAA HAAA HAAA! "...shown me I am wrong." Balderdash!

Yes.
The Chilean one for example.
That you choose to ignore the evidence that the Chilean government invested in this in the 60s onwards, evidence from the organisation itself, means you are either in denial, or you think the Chilean government is somehow in on "it". Whatever "it" is.

As for your latest "finds", if you want to assert that photo "X" from Google Earth is ancient ruins, or ancient forest, or whatever, then possibly providing us the coordinates might help? Otherwise it's all your usual assertion with no evidence. Of course we all know that as soon as you do provide coordinates we will find out that the ancient plantations and ruins are no such thing.

 

[King of the Americas]

You have heard of this thing called Google, haven't you?

You could, say, look up some of this stuff.

For example:
http://english.ryukyushimpo.jp/2011/07/20/1950/

Which says:


So, yes, ruins...but not quite as old as you think.

Funnily enough, the island was also (and maybe still?) used for extracting sulphur.

Are we now going to move onto mining areas that have since closed down?

Thank you for confirming that island's human habitation.

There ARE mines and indeed mining activity in the African area I pictured. There are also farm lands, old, some re-occupied, and some left barren and untended.

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes.
The Chilean one for example.
That you choose to ignore the evidence that the Chilean government invested in this in the 60s onwards, evidence from the organisation itself, means you are either in denial, or you think the Chilean government is somehow in on "it". Whatever "it" is.
...

*Objection- Witness is addressing testimony not part of the record.

I DID in fact research the Chilean government's budget, and posted links to its activity at the time they claim to have planted it. They did NOT increase agricultural spending to plant and water millions of trees in the desert.

All of the pictures offered, here, have been of fully formed trees, not fields of tiny saplings.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

*Objection- Witness is addressing testimony not part of the record.

I DID in fact research the Chilean government's budget, and posted links to its activity at the time they claim to have planted it. They did NOT increase agricultural spending to plant and water millions of trees in the desert.

All of the pictures offered, here, have been of fully formed trees, not fields of tiny saplings.

Even if you would be correct (of which I see no evidence)
How would the ancient forest you suggest remain so perfectly manicured for centuries? And now you're saying the trees couldn't survive without being watered? How has this long since extinct culture of yours kept watering the trees for the last few millennia?

 

[SOdhner]

How would the ancient forest you suggest remain so perfectly manicured for centuries? And now you're saying the trees couldn't survive without being watered? How has this long since extinct culture of your kept watering the trees for the last few meillennia?

Ancient Atlantean drip-system. Held up really well. Also, it's cool how when the old trees die (since these trees don't live long enough for KotA's timeline) the new ones grew in still in the perfect pattern. Very considerate of them.

 

[Tolls]

Thank you for confirming that island's human habitation.

OK.
So what was the purpose of showing us the image of the island?
Those are not ancient ruins.
They're the remnants of the post-eruption village, evacuated 60 or so years ago. Not ancient.

*Objection- Witness is addressing testimony not part of the record.

I DID in fact research the Chilean government's budget, and posted links to its activity at the time they claim to have planted it. They did NOT increase agricultural spending to plant and water millions of trees in the desert.

All of the pictures offered, here, have been of fully formed trees, not fields of tiny saplings.

You showed no such thing.
You simply asserted it.

So on the one hand we have you saying they didn't do it, and on the other hand we have CONAF saying they did. Hmmm. Who to believe?

 

[King of the Americas]

Even if you would be correct (of which I see no evidence)
How would the ancient forest you suggest remain so perfectly manicured for centuries? And now you're saying the trees couldn't survive without being watered? How has this long since extinct culture of yours kept watering the trees for the last few millennia?

One, I have no idea how old these ancient forests are...I never said anything about 12,000. I said these trees in the first forest can live over 400 years.

The kind of trees in the first find grow faster depending in their access to ground water. In large numbers they are actually capable of transforming water tables. No doubt establishing a multimillion tree orchard was no small feat, but it was not re-planted. The trees that reached the water are still growing, massively so. Some get some water and have smaller growth, and other areas are barren, and the death pattern looks geographical.

I have no idea who did this planting or how long ago it was, that's why I need people in places to do some core sampling!

 

[JesseCuster]

Thank you for confirming that island's human habitation.

1. Nobody had denied that the island was inhabited by humans, so why does it need 'confirming', as if that fact was in doubt?

2. The fact that you're thanking someone for confirming something that a 30 second Google search could find just makes it sound like you're either too lazy to bother finding this stuff yourself or you don't know how to find basic information via Google.

There ARE mines and indeed mining activity in the African area I pictured. There are also farm lands, old, some re-occupied, and some left barren and untended.

So what?

 

[King of the Americas]

...

You showed no such thing.
You simply asserted it.

...

READ- LEARN: http://www.cieplan.org/media/publicaciones/archivos/27/Capitulo_1.pdf

"...agrarian reform..." NOT investment (pg. 5).

Chile did NOT have the money to invest in a desert tree planting party...