Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

Skeptic Ginger, I think you are seriously out on a limb. She remembers the kiss as inappropriate, Franken doesn't remember it as inappropriate. I think it perfectly plausible to believe both of them. If Tweeden remembers it as inappropriate, and it has bothered her, that is totally her prerogative - chances are, it WAS inappropriate, and Franken at the time may have, for whatever reaons (probably bad ones) not sensed the inappropriateness - an apology would be in order. She made it public, Franken offered an apology, she accepted, and Franken also offered some kind of neutral party inquiry.

Trying to second-guess motives is pretty pointless, if you ask me. If she felt harrassed, she has every right to complain, at any time, period. No second-guessing! You'd only have a point if you accuse of lying - that she was NOT in fact bothered, or didn't even sense it as inappropriate, or that it didn't even happen and she knows it. But that would be a proposition you have no evidence for.

You demand that, before you believe her, more cases of Franken behaving in similar manner come out, to establish a pattern.
By the same logic, I could demand of you, before I believe you, to show me other examples of her making false or inflated accusations of this nature, to establish a pattern.
 
Oystein said:
Skeptic Ginger, I think you are seriously out on a limb. She remembers the kiss as inappropriate, Franken doesn't remember it as inappropriate. I think it perfectly plausible to believe both of them.
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So what are you arguing about here then?

Oystein said:
If Tweeden remembers it as inappropriate, and it has bothered her, that is totally her prerogative - chances are, it WAS inappropriate,
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You were OK up to this.

You look at the evidence and say chances are Tweeden perceived it the way it happened? Why? And why am I wrong to look at the evidence and conclude the opposite?

Oystein said:
...and Franken at the time may have, for whatever reaons (probably bad ones) not sensed the inappropriateness - an apology would be in order. She made it public, Franken offered an apology, she accepted, and Franken also offered some kind of neutral party inquiry.
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Trying to second guess motives there? :rolleyes:

And doesn't that bolded part below in your post apply to Tweeden second guessing Franken's motives for the skit and practicing the skit as well?

Oystein said:
Trying to second-guess motives is pretty pointless, if you ask me. If she felt harrassed, she has every right to complain, at any time, period. No second-guessing! You'd only have a point if you accuse of lying - that she was NOT in fact bothered, or didn't even sense it as inappropriate, or that it didn't even happen and she knows it. But that would be a proposition you have no evidence for.
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Have I once said in this thread she had no right to complain? No, I have not.

Oystein said:
You demand that, before you believe her, more cases of Franken behaving in similar manner come out, to establish a pattern.
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No, I'm not demanding anything. I believe she believes that is how the incident went.

But like any eyewitness anecdote, not everyone is a good observer, especially when emotions are influencing perceptions. I'm saying this is how I see the evidence and the fact that she's obsessed with this single incident from 10 years ago and no one else has come forward, is part of the evidence worth considering.

Oystein said:
By the same logic, I could demand of you, before I believe you, to show me other examples of her making false or inflated accusations of this nature, to establish a pattern.
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Depends. Without either having a pattern, if that's all we look at, we are back to he said/she said being of equal value.

It's possible she hates Franken for the groping joke among other things. Maybe she doesn't hate anyone else like that.

Franken OTOH, has been in a gazillion kissing skits. You would expect he would have tongued someone else in all that time.
 
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Oystein said:
No, an observation.


Snipped all that evades what I posted.
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you posted nothing. everything you have argued is a mix of arrogance and misogyny

You actually posted that that the victim "erred" when she said that scum bag Al Franken did not grope her because you saw the picture... he saw the picture.

He saw the picture folks! She erred, Al Franken erred, I lied

mansplaining folks, back off.
 
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angrysoba said:
I don't know if it has been mentioned yet, but Leeann Tweeden has accepted Franken's apologies and doesn't want him to resign.

It could be that both sides yelling that he's as bad as Roy Moore, or that she is a lying right-wing attack dog, are wrong, and that they are going to settle the problem amicably.

If that's the case it would certainly make a refreshing change - that he has made a complete apology and not some half-hearted "accept my apologies if you got your knickers in a twist", and she has managed to speak out while keeping a sense of perspective.

As far as I can see, all's well that ends well.
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OMG man! What in the hell do you think you're doing?

Posting a sensible comment in the USA Politards sub-forum.

How dare you! ;):)
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
No, the difference is no one has corroborated that this was common behavior by Franken.
And just because this was an alleged sexual encounter, do we simply throw out the window the issue of possible false beliefs?
Political doesn't have to contribute, some people just don't like other people for whatever reason.
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Who cares if this was common behaviour by Franken?

He admitted he was wrong, why are you making excuses for him?
 
ProBonoShill said:
Who cares if this was common behaviour by Franken?

He admitted he was wrong, why are you making excuses for him?
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Not making any excuses. Simply noting that the grope joke is not a real grope and he apologized for it. And noting he said he didn't remember the skit/kiss the way Tweeden did.

Any reason you want to lessen the actual sexual harassment complaints by making a huge deal of this one?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
As was mentioned upthread, unless Franken's tongue rivals Gene Simmons' from Kiss, tongues don't reach down another's throat.


I'm not spinning any story. I'm looking at the wider evidence.

I believe she believes he tried to French kiss her, it was inappropriate at the time and she believes he did it on purpose in order to get a kiss.

It could have just been an innocent skit and the tonguing was questionable.

Either she perceived the kiss as it happened, or she's exaggerating the incident because people do that.

Why is, "she perceived the kiss as it happened" the only possible option here?

There are a number of reasons to believe she misperceived the incident. The biggest reason is why have no other actors reported similar incidents? Franken surely has done a gazillion kissing skits in his comedy career.

At this point, sorry if it pisses you off, but I am not convinced she perceived the incident as it actually occurred.
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I see, using your twisted rationale, if a woman claimed she was raped on a movie set, yet no one else ever made the same accusations towards the perpetrator even though he had worked on several other movies, the woman is lying?

You might want to think about changing your avatar.
 
Shall we count down the most disgraceful arguments in this dumpster fire thread?

Gonna start with we don’t believe the victim unless there are not multiple reports.

Raise your hand if that offensive nonsense offends you.

Raises hands!
 
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Next, I have got to go with the claim that the woman who accused Al Franken of groping her “erred” because some man thought that the picture did not show the *********** scum bag actually touching the breast.

SHE ERRED.

Yet, she persisted.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
Not making any excuses. Simply noting that the grope joke is not a real grope and he apologized for it. And noting he said he didn't remember the skit/kiss the way Tweeden did.
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No as I said you were trying to excuse his behaviour, one more time:

no one has corroborated that this was common behavior by Franken
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That's an excuse.


Any reason you want to lessen the actual sexual harassment complaints by making a huge deal of this one?
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One post disagreeing with you is a huge deal? :confused:

LOL okay.

I'm in agreement with Angrysoba. His behaviour was bad, he apologized and she apparently is good with that. Hopefully this is an isolated incident and he won't do it again.

Not sure why you continue to attack his accuser and make excuses.

Actually that's not true, I'm pretty sure I know why you're doing it.
 
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"To every survivor of sexual assault...You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed. We're with you." —Hillary
 
I have made dozens of mistakes in my life, some of which affected others.

You apologize, which apparently Franken has done, and she has accepted.

If you can't move on from mistakes, you have a mental problem, IMHO.
 
applecorped said:
"To every survivor of sexual assault...You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed. We're with you." —Hillary
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And they do. Problem is, we don't know if Tweeden was actually assaulted. However, point taken, every accuser has a right to be heard.

There are a few strategies to deal with this. Al Franken can stay and have an ethics investigation, to which he agrees to fall in line with the conclusion of that investigation. He could resign now and let himself be replaced by another person assigned by the gov of his state.

The first option is what he's doing, and it's perfectly reasonable. He is putting himself at risk but it's still a right the to do. The second option is reasonable as well, but runs the risk of giving Republicans a new tactic to use against Democrats, which is to find the most obscure cases of improper conduct and raise hell, to distract from the extreme conduct in their party.
 
ProBonoShill said:
I see, using your twisted rationale, if a woman claimed she was raped on a movie set, yet no one else ever made the same accusations towards the perpetrator even though he had worked on several other movies, the woman is lying?

You might want to think about changing your avatar.
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Strawman plus hyperbole, a twofur.

Franken has a long reputation of supporting women's rights. And his immediate apology fits that reputation.

Tweeden's accusations fit one person, her personal perception, and other evidence suggests her perception might not be perfectly reliable.

Everyone's on the bandwagon here, if a woman says it, it must be true, the total picture be damned. How dare I actually look at the whole situation.

I will not be changing my avatar.
 
fuelair said:
If they bite that tongue off, that, at least, will be never be done by the doer again.:):thumbsup::jaw-dropp
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That would have been evidence he actually did what she claimed. Other than "he had slimy lips" she mentioned he stuck his tongue in "so fast". What does that even mean, he got in a quickie?

Gawd some people in this thread have it in for Franken, not one benefit of the doubt whatsoever. Says a lot.
 
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