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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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Jim Bishop, The Day Kennedy Was Shot, 1968

Part "The Midnight Hours", chapter "12 midnight" (that is referring to Dallas time, not Eastern Time in Bethesda):

...

The show was over. The audience had dissipated. Roy Kellerman phoned Clint Hill on the seventeenth floor. “Come on down,” he said. “I want you to look at these wounds.” The Gawler group arrived. Joseph Hagan introduced himself and his assistants to a Navy enlisted man. For the embalming, he had Mr. John Van Haesen, Mr. Edwin Stroble, and Mr. Thomas Robinson. They would not begin their labors until the autopsy team signified that its work had been completed.

...

In the autopsy room, the sheet was removed from the President’s body, and Kellerman ordered Clint Hill to make his observations. The body was turned face down, then returned to its original position. Hill was stoical as he noted a bullet puncture at the base of the neck in the back and a small hole in the rear of the head, in addition to the big rent in the middle of the head. He was sent back to the Kennedy suite to stand guard and to file a personal report.

...

The three men were replaced by four. The function of the new men was to restore John Fitzgerald Kennedy to an approximation of serene sleep. In a manner of speaking, this is the most tender and most difficult of services. It is normally performed in secrecy. For Joseph Gawler’s Sons, it would have been easier to take the body to their establishment. The instruments and material would be at hand, and the body could have been returned in ninety minutes.

This was not permitted because Mrs. Kennedy did not want the body taken from the hospital. Understandably the word hospital did not have the note of finality encompassed in “funeral home,” “autopsy,” and “embalming.” It lifted the weary spirit a trifle to think of a Navy officer in a Navy hospital. It postponed a final accounting.


Chapter "1 a.m.":

...

The final abuse of the body was under way. Pumping leads were established under the armpits. One forced a formaldehyde compound through the arteries of the body as a tube on the opposite side accepted the last of the body's blood. Gawler's men were efficient and almost silent. The four maintained their separate tasks. This time it was difficult to keep the hands from trembling. All of the hour had lived in and around the capital with this charmer, this buoyant President. When the sheet was curled off the body, the professionals looked at what was left. Each man kept his features immobile, but each felt the depression of death.

A cosmetician studied the bloated face. Roy Kellerman got to his feet, walked over, and whispered: "How long?" the answer, whispered, was "Not long." He asked again "How long?" An embalmer looked at his wristwatch. The time in Washington was 2:30 A.M. "An hors," he said. "An hour and fifteen minutes." Roy Kellerman strode back to his witness chair and phoned Clint Hill. "Tell the Attorney General we leave about 3:45," he said. "Tell the White House too."



NOTE: Although this book has been described as sloppily written, Bishop did apparently interview the Gawler's funeral home team. Under the Epilogue section, it reads:

...

William Greer, who drove SS-100-X, has retired from the Secret Service. I visited him at his home in Maryland. His wife was ill and it was not a time to badger a man with ugly memories, but he sat and said: “Go ahead. It will take my mind off other things.” The men of Gawler’s Sons were discreet and ethical. Cliff Carter, who sat with President Johnson that night at The Elms, has a long and accurate memory.

Free epub ebook link: http://libgen.io/book/index.php?md5=7876BAF4EE77C8EAD101485D2FD17C93
 
It really matter how accurate the writer claims his interviews were, or how accurate he describes somebody else's memory as, when he is giving his own interpretation of a narrative, and not the contents of those interviews he claims to have taken.

It is, at best, hearsay.

It is meaningless as evidence.
 
I don't have a copy handy at the moment, but Bugliosi mentions that the doctors stayed to assist the morticians. If that's true, it could account for some of the confusion about when the autopsy ended, and why some of the morticians thought they witnessed part of the autopsy.

BTW, here is a digital version of Bugliosi's book Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy

<snip>


Edited by Loss Leader: 
Links to clearly pirated copies of copyrighted work removed. Rules 1 and 4 prevent linking to illegal content.
 
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Tom Robinson, Joe Hagan and John Van Hoesen have described witnessing the body being forensically examined, not just being assisted by Dr. Humes.

Oh good. Now you just need to prove those claims are accurate with documentary evidence. Otherwise we have no reason to believe they have memories that are free from any of the limitations we would expect from any other human beings, and are qualified to describe, and indeed understand, a forensic examination.
 
If anybody wants a digital copy of Vincent Palamara's book From Parkland To Bethesda, here it is. It's a handy guide to virtually all witness statements regarding Kennedy's wounds.

<snip>


Edited by Loss Leader: 
Edited to remove link to illegal content - Rules 1 and 4. If the cite linked ends in ".ru" please consider that the content's legality is questionable.
 
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Actual footage of lone nutters evaluating evidence:

tumblr_n549wr0baF1r5kwd9o1_400.gif
 
Actual footage of lone nutters evaluating evidence:

[qimg]https://78.media.tumblr.com/cf0ecb5e8e998e9234266b4a61459a36/tumblr_n549wr0baF1r5kwd9o1_400.gif[/qimg]

By "evidence" do you mean the decades old memories that are not supported by the documentary records, or the hearsay scraped from books whose editorial process is not obligated to avoid bias or pre-conclusions?
 
Yes, but you are propagating it. I think a letter to the publishers might be in order, no?

Just a gentle query on their stance on violation of copyright matters. It would be well to be clear what they think of that, would it not? From a legal point of view?

I don't care about piracy.
 
I don't have a copy handy at the moment, but Bugliosi mentions that the doctors stayed to assist the morticians. If that's true, it could account for some of the confusion about when the autopsy ended, and why some of the morticians thought they witnessed part of the autopsy.

Yes, the doctors helped with the head wound, they have stated that in the dozens of depositions we've linked to that MJ refuses to, or cannot read.
 
How long does the embalming process take?

A typical embalming takes 45 minutes to an hour to complete. Cosmetology, dressing, and "casketing" of the body may prolong the process to several hours.

They clearly did it in under four hours.

Unlike a normal situation, the morticians had a small army of people standing by to get the body dressed, and placed into the casket...almost like it was the President of the United States or something.
 
I don't care about piracy.


You may not care, but the moderating team does. From the Digital Media Law Project:


The situation changes when you knowingly link to works that clearly infringe somebody's copyright, like pirated music files or video clips of commercially distributed movies and music videos. In this situation, you might be liable for what is known as "contributory copyright infringement."


Posting links to pirated material breaches the Rule 1 prohibition on criminal behavior and the Rule 4 prohibition on copyright infringement. Because the rule is rarely invoked, no infractions have been handed out for these recent breaches. Future breaches will be treated very seriously.

Thank you for your anticipated cooperation.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Loss Leader
 
Piracy and ConsPiracy

I don't care about piracy.

Not surprising that one who defies the plain evidence in the JFK case would also disregard the law in other ways. If you post another pirate link, the Moderators might bounce you. You've been on stage far too long anyway.
 
Not surprising that one who defies the plain evidence in the JFK case would also disregard the law in other ways. If you post another pirate link, the Moderators might bounce you. You've been on stage far too long anyway.

If you can't handle facts and evidence, you could always choose to not participate in this specific thread instead of hoping my account is disabled.
 
If you can't handle facts and evidence, you could always choose to not participate in this specific thread instead of hoping my account is disabled.

Talk about self contradictory posts, this one is a beaut.

You've been running around in the same circle for at least the last two years making the same assertions about this or that factoid while ignoring the documented evidence that has LHO in the TSBD with his Carcano, a dead POTUS and a dead DPD officer w/ LHO apprehended with the murder weapon in hand.

Droning on about a midnight phone call and the time it takes to embalm a body contributes nothing to the discussion of this subject.
 
Talk about self contradictory posts, this one is a beaut.

You've been running around in the same circle for at least the last two years making the same assertions about this or that factoid while ignoring the documented evidence that has LHO in the TSBD with his Carcano, a dead POTUS and a dead DPD officer w/ LHO apprehended with the murder weapon in hand.

Droning on about a midnight phone call and the time it takes to embalm a body contributes nothing to the discussion of this subject.

You couldn't start to wonder if that story was BS even if it became apparent that Kennedy's autopsy pathologists lied about what they knew about the bullet wound in his throat?
 
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No thanks

If you can't handle facts and evidence, you could always choose to not participate in this specific thread instead of hoping my account is disabled.

No, I think I'll do exactly as I please, thanks. When you show yourself capable of presenting facts and evidence in a credible manner, I'll see if I can handle them. And you disabled yourself long before the Mods could do anything about your account. I just wish this vaudeville had another turn on.
 
You couldn't start to wonder if that story was BS even if it became apparent that Kennedy's autopsy pathologists lied about what they knew about the bullet wound in his throat?

What is apparent to the CTist doesn't hold much water IRL.

You're been at this on this site for over two years with nothing other than a poor reputation to show for it.

Your (more accurately your recounting of some other CTists jive) throat entry wound fails on the facts - the wound is variously described as 3mm to 5mm.

The one and only 5mm cartridge and rifle was not available until 1969:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5mm_Remington_Rimfire_Magnum

Whatever your next flight of fancy may be, do yourself some good and don't buy CTist nonsense hook line and sinker w/o looking into actual facts before relying on it. It might save you some embarrassment.
 
You couldn't start to wonder if that story was BS even if it became apparent that Kennedy's autopsy pathologists lied about what they knew about the bullet wound in his throat?

The problem is that it is not apparent that the pathologists lied. None of the evidence supports this allegation. ALL of the evidence supports a single GSW to the upper back that exited through the throat: Ballistics, forensic, and fiber evidence is conclusive.

Worse, nothing you have posted suggests anything out of line at any point from the time the body arrived at Bethesda until the time it left. You ignore the huge cadre of Kennedy staffers present the entire time this all went down who never let the body out of their sight, people loyal to JFK and RFK - who was also there .

At the time of the autopsy Oswald was in custody of the Dallas Police, there was no reason to lie about a throat wound because at any time he could have confessed to the detectives, there was no way to predict, or stop this from happening.

None of your theories work in the real world.
 
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