Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[DGM]

Okay Tomtomkent, whatever you just said, you can have that.

So what point did you make?

 

[Axxman300]

"...BEFORE THE EMBALMING..."

"...THE EMBALMING WAS PERFORMED AFTER..."

Can you read?

And how long to reconstruct the skull for possible open casket? They did that too.

This is a non-issue. Nobody cares.

Again, this little side adventure of yours is only relevant if you now believe the body was surgically altered, and that all of the shots came from the front.

 

[Axxman300]

Okay Tomtomkent, whatever you just said, you can have that.

There's nothing to prove. The data is in all of the stuff you've posted to waste our time.

 

[HSienzant]

"...BEFORE THE EMBALMING..."

"...THE EMBALMING WAS PERFORMED AFTER..."

Can you read?

So Kellerman was the outlier. Most of the other documentation puts the autopsy completion at 11:00PM on Friday night, and the morticians starting the embalming process shortly thereafter. At best, Kellerman says all that happened at close to 2:45AM on Saturday morning.

Discrepancies of this nature are going to happen in all documentation.

As another poster pointed out, it is still Oswald's weapons, Oswald's ammo in both the JFK assassination and the Tippit shooting later the same day.

And this discrepancy you think you found means nothing in the face of the other documentation. Unless you think everyone who gave a counter-time is part of the cover-up.

Hank

 

[bknight]

Ok, both Hill and Kellerman indicate the body arrived at the Whitehouse at ~0424, now lets back up time wise Thirty minutes from Bethesda to WH. Now we have an embalming, reconstruction concluded between 0245 and 0400? That is way too short a time period to do all the work. So Hill's time he viewed the body is in deep question. I suspect he misremembered the time because all other times lead one to understand the autopsy was complete around 2300, giving ample time for the embalming.
Beside this discrepancy, this in no way invalidates KHO shooting three times from the 6th floor of the TSBD, hitting JFK and JBC with the second shot and killing JFK with the third shot.
MJ you found a discrepancy in the records nothing else.

 

[MicahJava]

Ok, both Hill and Kellerman indicate the body arrived at the Whitehouse at ~0424, now lets back up time wise Thirty minutes from Bethesda to WH. Now we have an embalming, reconstruction concluded between 0245 and 0400? That is way too short a time period to do all the work. So Hill's time he viewed the body is in deep question. I suspect he misremembered the time because all other times lead one to understand the autopsy was complete around 2300, giving ample time for the embalming.
Beside this discrepancy, this in no way invalidates KHO shooting three times from the 6th floor of the TSBD, hitting JFK and JBC with the second shot and killing JFK with the third shot.
MJ you found a discrepancy in the records nothing else.

Bknight, that is in intetesting point: can you reconstruct and embalm a body in 1 1/2 hours? Well, most of the hard work was already done at the autopsy: the organs had already been removed. Plus Roy Kellerman was up their butt to hurry up.

 

[MicahJava]

So Kellerman was the outlier. Most of the other documentation puts the autopsy completion at 11:00PM on Friday night, and the morticians starting the embalming process shortly thereafter. At best, Kellerman says all that happened at close to 2:45AM on Saturday morning.

Discrepancies of this nature are going to happen in all documentation.

As another poster pointed out, it is still Oswald's weapons, Oswald's ammo in both the JFK assassination and the Tippit shooting later the same day.

And this discrepancy you think you found means nothing in the face of the other documentation. Unless you think everyone who gave a counter-time is part of the cover-up.

Hank

The only outlier is Dr. Humes. Have you considered that his "11 P.M." estimation was a lie to discourage people from talking about this kind of stuff?

 

[HSienzant]

The only outlier is Dr. Humes. Have you considered that his "11 P.M." estimation was a lie to discourage people from talking about this kind of stuff?

Let's review:

You were arguing the autopsy went on for an additional three hours and 45 minutes or so past Humes 11:00 pm estimate on Friday night.

You were arguing the morticians saw a lot of the autopsy.

You were arguing the FBI left halfway or less through the autopsy.

We saw plenty of evidence all of that was wrong. Much of it was contemporaneous -- you went instead with recollections 33 or 34 years after the fact slicing and dicing statements to the ARRB to attempt to prove your case.

That didn't go well for you at all.

For just one example, the Gawler's documentation says the morticians gained access to the body "after 11pm" on Friday, 11/22/63, and their work concluded by 4am the following day. It also says they didn't gain access to JFK until the autopsy was concluded:

GAWLER AND HAGAN CONTINUED MEETINGS WITH MDW, HOSPITAL STAFF, SECRET SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ETC. AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED.

CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963. UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MR. HAGAN, THE EMBALMING, COSMETICS, RESTORATION (EXTENSIVE CRANIAL DAMAGE), DRESSING AND CASKETING WAS COMPLETED BY 4 A.M. ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1963.

Now you're back to arguing Humes lied. That won't fly. You haven't shown Humes had any reason to lie. You tried to float that with the autopsy report, saying Humes perhaps was trying to support the official story.

You dropped that line of argument when I pointed out at the time of the autopsy, there was no official story. The murder of JFK and officer Tippit were both Dallas crimes, in the hands of the Dallas officials. The Warren Commission wasn't created yet, they wouldn't out their official conclusions for another ten months (September of 1964) and there's no official story for Humes to be concerned about.

So you need to make a better case than you've done so far to establish Humes lied. A mere discrepancy in one man's account isn't sufficient to establish anything other than a discrepancy in one man's account.

If we were suggesting you lied every time there was a discrepancy in your accounts (you contradict yourself frequently, with no attempt at a reconciliation or a retraction), we'd have no time to breathe.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Bknight, that is in intetesting point: can you reconstruct and embalm a body in 1 1/2 hours?

That has been your argument for the past ten pages or so. You've been arguing that the autopsy didn't really end until after two am on Saturday morning. Now you want to turn around and suggest that's not enough time?

Hilarious.

You referenced Joe Hagan here:

For what it's worth, I overlooked two ARRB interviews with Joe Hagan:

ARRB Meeting Report Summarizing 5/17/1996 In-Person Interview of Joseph E. Hagan

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md182/html/md182_0003a.htm

ARRB Call Report Summarizing 6/11/1996 Brief Telephonic Interview of Joe Hagan

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md182/html/md182_0007a.htm

Well, Hagan says the embalming took place from "shortly after midnight and concluded about 3:00 am", and then the reconstruction took the rest of the time until the President's body was put into the hearse. That was his recollection decades after the event.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md182/html/md182_0004a.htm

But a contemporaneous document provided by Gawler's shows the times of 11:45pm to 3:30am for all work, according to Hagan:

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md182/html/md182_0005a.htm

And again, that agrees with Humes recollection that the autopsy was over by about 11:00pm. And disagrees with your arguments for 2:30 or thereabouts for the completion of the autopsy.

The outlier is anyone who says the autopsy concluded about 2:30am on Saturday morning.

That means you.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

Bknight, that is in intetesting point: can you reconstruct and embalm a body in 1 1/2 hours?

If the autopsy wrapped up between 11pm and midnight, that left THREE HOURS to process the body. Only the head was damaged, and that took a lot of work.

Well, most of the hard work was already done at the autopsy: the organs had already been removed.

They put them back, and they are not part of the embalming process.

 

[Axxman300]

The only outlier is Dr. Humes. Have you considered that his "11 P.M." estimation was a lie to discourage people from talking about this kind of stuff?

Why would he lie about something nobody cares about?

First, Oswald was still alive at this time, and nobody knew what he was going to say in the coming days.

Second, it is clear that the FBI and CIA were looking, and hoping to link Oswald to other conspirators, so there was nothing to cover-up at the autopsy.

Third, you have demonstrated a breathtaking inability to gauge the passage of time. This is dwarfed only by your dedication to unreliable and inaccurate source material.

 

[Axxman300]

This kind of crap reporting is why we can't have nice things:

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jack-r...o-watch-the-fireworks-day-jfk-died-documents/

The gist:

"

The informant stated that on the morning of the assassination, Ruby contacted him and asked if he would 'like to watch the fireworks,'" an FBI record dated April 6, 1977, says. "He was with Jack Ruby and standing at the corner of the Postal Annex Building facing the Texas School Book Depository Building at the time of the shooting. Immediately after the shooting, Ruby left and headed toward the area of the Dallas Morning News Building."

Sounds incriminating, right?

Here's the actual file, read it and compare to the CBS News story:

https://www.archives.gov/files/research/jfk/releases/docid-32149267.pdf

The Gist:

Vanderslice is a CI having a discussion over lunch with an FBI agent, the subject of a stripper named Candy Bar, who worked at Jack Ruby's place, comes up, and this leads to him relating the story. This was in 1977.

But...

When the FBI attempts to contact him he never shows up, never answers the phone, and otherwise refuses to elaborate on his story officially. So what you have is a guy who makes a comment - not A STATEMENT - that may or may not have been true, and has never been verified, and does not link Ruby to Oswald or the assassination.

But...CBS can't help themselves in a click-bait world. Thus a new generation of CT morons will rise to keep me busy.

 

[Wolrab]

What does all this matter? JFK was dead the entire time. If every instance of documentation was perfect, it would just be some other non-relevant issue.

 

[MicahJava]

We saw plenty of evidence all of that was wrong. Much of it was contemporaneous -- you went instead with recollections 33 or 34 years after the fact slicing and dicing statements to the ARRB to attempt to prove your case.

That didn't go well for you at all.

No, I didn't really go for ARRB stuff at all. Joe Hagan, John Van Hoesen, and Tom Robinson were interviewed much before that, even before the HSCA as with Jim Bishop's 1968 book The Day Kennedy Was Shot.

For just one example, the Gawler's documentation says the morticians gained access to the body "after 11pm" on Friday, 11/22/63, and their work concluded by 4am the following day. It also says they didn't gain access to JFK until the autopsy was concluded:

GAWLER AND HAGAN CONTINUED MEETINGS WITH MDW, HOSPITAL STAFF, SECRET SERVICE, DEPARTMENT OF STATE, ETC. AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED.

CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963. UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MR. HAGAN, THE EMBALMING, COSMETICS, RESTORATION (EXTENSIVE CRANIAL DAMAGE), DRESSING AND CASKETING WAS COMPLETED BY 4 A.M. ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1963.

That document says "11 AM" after describing events that provably took place after that time, like the delivery of the casket at 2 AM. Also I don't think you see the significance in the detail where the Gawler's team were told to "stand by until the autopsy was completed".

Now you're back to arguing Humes lied. That won't fly. You haven't shown Humes had any reason to lie. You tried to float that with the autopsy report, saying Humes perhaps was trying to support the official story.

You dropped that line of argument when I pointed out at the time of the autopsy, there was no official story. The murder of JFK and officer Tippit were both Dallas crimes, in the hands of the Dallas officials. The Warren Commission wasn't created yet, they wouldn't out their official conclusions for another ten months (September of 1964) and there's no official story for Humes to be concerned about.

So you need to make a better case than you've done so far to establish Humes lied. A mere discrepancy in one man's account isn't sufficient to establish anything other than a discrepancy in one man's account.

If we were suggesting you lied every time there was a discrepancy in your accounts (you contradict yourself frequently, with no attempt at a reconciliation or a retraction), we'd have no time to breathe.

Hank

I didn't say the doctors were enacting a cover-up on the same day. Why would they discuss the throat wound as a bullet hole and probe it in front of several autopsy witnesses?

 

[Tomtomkent]

No, I didn't really go for ARRB stuff at all. Joe Hagan, John Van Hoesen, and Tom Robinson were interviewed much before that, even before the HSCA as with Jim Bishop's 1968 book The Day Kennedy Was Shot.

Hearsay, given without the weight of an official enquiry, without being given under oath, should not be expected to overturn documentary evidence. If you have any interest in this being a serious conversation, see if you can understand why.

 

[SpitfireIX]

I don't have a copy handy at the moment, but Bugliosi mentions that the doctors stayed to assist the morticians. If that's true, it could account for some of the confusion about when the autopsy ended, and why some of the morticians thought they witnessed part of the autopsy.

 

[MicahJava]

I don't have a copy handy at the moment, but Bugliosi mentions that the doctors stayed to assist the morticians. If that's true, it could account for some of the confusion about when the autopsy ended, and why some of the morticians thought they witnessed part of the autopsy.

The morticians always said they were told to wait while the autopsy was still in progress. FBI agents Sibert and O'Neil were under the impression that the autopsy was finished when they arrived, so there's a window of time for the autopsy pathologists to discover the original small throat wound.

 

[MicahJava]

If the autopsy wrapped up between 11pm and midnight, that left THREE HOURS to process the body. Only the head was damaged, and that took a lot of work.



They put them back, and they are not part of the embalming process.

https://www.funerals360.com/blog/burial/the_truth_about_embalming/

How long does the embalming process take?

A typical embalming takes 45 minutes to an hour to complete. Cosmetology, dressing, and "casketing" of the body may prolong the process to several hours.

 

[Tomtomkent]

https://www.funerals360.com/blog/burial/the_truth_about_embalming/

How long does the embalming process take?

A typical embalming takes 45 minutes to an hour to complete. Cosmetology, dressing, and "casketing" of the body may prolong the process to several hours.

Assume for a second that the morticians were human, and prone to human error, embellishment, or misunderstanding. Can you see how this does not disprove the documentary evidence for the autopsy finishing at 11pm?

 

[SpitfireIX]

The morticians always said they were told to wait while the autopsy was still in progress. FBI agents Sibert and O'Neil were under the impression that the autopsy was finished when they arrived, so there's a window of time for the autopsy pathologists to discover the original small throat wound.

Neither of which has anything to do with my post.