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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Reality Check said:
Quote mining an uncited quote is considered to be close to a lie.
The source: Silvopastoral systems in arid and semiarid zones of northern Chile
The full abstract:

That is real data from a reliable source from 1991.
20,483 ha @ 100/ha = 2,048,300 trees + 37,000 ha @ (presumably) 100/ha = 3,700,000 trees = ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991.

On the other had we have your post with "This orchard has two sides and is 12 miles long and 3 miles wide, with plants spaced about every 40 feet ... ~7.5 million" trees when there are many orchards and that "40 feet" looks to be the minimum distance (there are trees 80 feet apart). Followed by a total guess of "billion of trees" for the southern area. The northern area is ~6,496 hectares. "Go further south, there's an even bigger plantation" that is looks like Pampa del Tamarugal National Reserve with maybe ~29,200 hectares of cultivation. No "billions" there!
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Forest or Farm?
 

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Reality Check said:
Quote mining an uncited quote is considered to be close to a lie.
The source: Silvopastoral systems in arid and semiarid zones of northern Chile
The full abstract:

That is real data from a reliable source from 1991.
20,483 ha @ 100/ha = 2,048,300 trees + 37,000 ha @ (presumably) 100/ha = 3,700,000 trees = ~5.7 million trees actually planted by 1991.

On the other had we have your post with "This orchard has two sides and is 12 miles long and 3 miles wide, with plants spaced about every 40 feet ... ~7.5 million" trees when there are many orchards and that "40 feet" looks to be the minimum distance (there are trees 80 feet apart). Followed by a total guess of "billion of trees" for the southern area. The northern area is ~6,496 hectares. "Go further south, there's an even bigger plantation" that is looks like Pampa del Tamarugal National Reserve with maybe ~29,200 hectares of cultivation. No "billions" there!
Click to expand...

A hectare is a unit of measurement for an area, specifically representing 10,000 square metres.

The squares in this forest are 990 m x 990 m, that's 980,000 sq m.

That said, discounting the border trees, that's about 144 trees by 144, per square. I've only counted several hundred squares...so that is millions of trees? Each square is fenced in by trees every 15 feet...that around 850 per square...so that's like another 350,000?

I 'think' the article said they planted them already between 14-21 feet tall.

Interesting, I found another forest further south, not connected to the main road in any way. One tiny dirt road is the only access.

Where did they get all these trees???
 
So, what I want to know is what you think you've found. The remains of a 12,000 year old orchard? You said yourself that these trees live for, what was it, 400 years?

So... how did the orchard stay intact for 12,000 years and not grow out of the lines over that period?

I mean, it's already been explained what this is, but I don't even understand what you think you found.
 
John Jones said:
HAHAHAHAHA! That's rich.
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I disagree that is VERY rich. I find it unfathomable that he actually thinks anyone values his opinion which he has demonstrated consists of fringe ravings and anti-scientific bias. Of course if he is just a troll then it makes perfect sense.
 
OK.
One last lot of links, to the main source of info on this whole forest planting thing.
This contains a whole load of analysis of the plantations.

Here's one page that should prove of interest as it has photos of pretty much the same sort of squares KotA is talking about. A couple of the pictures in question are titled "Aerial views of the forest planted by the Corporación de Fomento on the Refresco property. Tamarugal Pampa".

And seriously "Where did they get all these trees???"? You are really, truly, actually, asking that question?

Well, you could have a look at this bit of the report. The bit talking about these wonderful, magical things called seeds.
 
King of the Americas said:
Agreed...in reference to "H" stones and the square line cut...
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Yep you lied and you continue to have a problem with understanding that a forum KEEPS what you write so everyone can see it. You do understand that right? Right

Keep up the staggering good work of proving daily the foolishness of your position.
 
King of the Americas said:
List my source?
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Show that you can understand that With your numbers there are less than 50 million trees in the 2 areas.
FYI: The northern area is not a rectangle. Neither is the southern area. Google Maps has the feature that you can draw polygons (not only rectangles) on the map and it will tell you the area inside that polygon. I did that for the two areas and got: 16 November 2017: The two Pampa del Tamarugal regions are ~6,496 hectares and ~29,200 hectares
The southern area could hold 4.6 times more trees which is 34 million trees (your ~7.5 million trees). 34 million is not even one 100 million :jaw-dropp!

Your "even bigger planation" happens to be the Pampa del Tamarugal National Reserve.
Pampa del Tamarugal National Reserve is a nature reserve of northern Chile's Tarapacá Region located in the Pampa del Tamarugal, about 70 km (43 mi) east of Iquique. The reserve consists of three separate sectors: Zapiga, Bosque Nativo de La Tirana, and Pintados. The major highlights are the artificially planted [1][2] forests of the genus Prosopis (primarily Prosopis tamarugo), found in the middle of a rainless desert, and the Pintados geoglyphs.
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There is not even 1 plantation. There are plantings in a nature reserve.

Show that you did not write a delusion of a billion or hundreds of millions of trees in the southern area with official sources with those figures.
16 November 2017: What does the Chilean government or scientific literature report for the number of trees in the forestation project?
Show that your assertion of construction is not a fantasy by answering:
16 November 2017: List some buildings constructed of Prosopis tamarugo.

Show that you do not have the delusion the size of trees can determined in flat Google Map images (Street View would be a different matter) by answering:
16 November 2017: Give your sources for "some of them are absolutely massive" (Prosopis tamarugo)
 
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King of the Americas said:
I SAID you'd need a written language to carve the interlocking Puma Punku H-stones.
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An absurdly ignorant statement because many cultures around the world have carved complex patterns in stones without and written language as you know from Göbekli Tepe

ETA: That is only part of the Pumapunku "H-stones" assertion from ignorance:
I repeat Puma Punku was not formed using bronze, copper, or stone chisels and knotted string by a people with no written language.
The idiocy that having a written languages somehow makes carving stone easier?
Cannot understand that the tools were found!
An argument from total ignorance of stone working (he is a lawyer).
An ignorant fantasy that the Pumapunku are evidence of a "globally connected" civilization. It is the other way around. The distinctively Incan nature of the site is evidence of the local culture.

ETA2:
17 November 2017: Show that it is impossible to build Pumapunku "using bronze, copper, or stone chisels and knotted string by a people with no written language"
If this is not an ignorant fantasy then you have evidence for your assertion.
Are you a stone mason with expertise in ancient techniques? Then cite your credentials as you would expect from an expert witness in a trial.
Are you an archeologist? Then cite your credentials as you would expect from an expert witness in a trial.
Do you have credible archeological sources for your assertion. Then cite them.
 
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King of the Americas said:
Are you arguing an EI or global community connection? If not this is a derail.
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That is not a derail. You have the absurd claim that Easter Island has a connection to modem planting of trees in Chile.

A slightly less absurd claim is that Easter Island is connected to the Bands of Holes which are at least old :eye-poppi!

And what about the Nazca Lines? And why stop in Chile - obviously Easter Island has a connection to Amazonian Indians, Brazil, the Sahara Desert, etc :p!

We have a fantasy of statues all facing in one direction + the fantasy that ocean ridges are a straight line + the fantasy that the ridges are significant in some was and so should be followed + the ignorant act of stopping at the first thing that impressed your lack of knowledge and inability to Google.
 
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Reality Check said:
A slightly less absurd claim is that Easter Island is connected to the Bands of Holes which are at least old :eye-poppi!
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Yes can anyone prove that EVERY SINGLE CIVILIZATION doesn't have the technology to dig holes? I think not!

I am pro hole. I believe HSS have been digging holes for hundreds of thousands of years. While some stuffy academics may dismiss the important of holes, and one must respect the round versus oblong hole controversy - I would point out that even Julius Caesar famously said:

I came, I saw, I dug a hole

Has any culture moved to a civilization without being able to dig a hole? I mean the Slapawaki tribe did have some trouble digging holes (PNG) but with a Polish grant. instructors and motivation they were able to take the step to modernity.
 
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King of the Americas said:
Agreed...in reference to "H" stones and the square line cut...
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Agrees with his litany of ignorant, unsupported assertions :eye-poppi!

With a fantasy of "H-stones"? I have not read that term for Pumapunku. The walls were made of easily cut red sandstone blocks. The stone facing and carvings were made of smaller andesite blocks

ETA: There are blocks which could be described as having a couple of indents that form an "H" (see the back blocks of this image). But it would be stupid to claim that there are "H-stones" that cannot be formed with Incan chisels.
 
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Reality Check said:
16 November 2017: A delusion that all "buried" moai face in the same direction and that is toward Chile?
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You may have missed the question - what are your sources for your assertion giving measured direction that the moai all face.

Also: Why cherry pick these "buried" moai?
 
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