Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[HSienzant]

"Around midnight Ken, Larry, and I picked out a coffin for our President"

-David Powers, Handwritten notes of November 22–23, 1963.

cited in The Death of a President by William Manchester, 1967

This is referring to the mahogany coffin that was then transported along with the morticians that worked on Kennedy.

Remember the autopsy could finish up independent of the morticians being there.

Remember the work by the morticians could start independent of having a casket already there.

And there's no good reason to sit around waiting for a casket to shoe up before you start.

And the contemporaneous record says they started after 11pm.

So we know you're STILL trying to shoehorn your argument that "the autopsy ended after 2pm" in here from this hearsay.

Nope, Prince Charming Dude, still doesn't fit.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

This is not the place to use the term "exit wound " loosely. You need evidence for an actual bullet or a piece of a bullet exiting there. The autopsy photographs show the mysterious red triangle in that area of the scalp, not a hole.

Bolded: Okay, so you don't know what you're looking at, and you're still pretending you know what you're talking about? Not impressive at all.

Where did the autopsy put the bullet exit?

Where was it drawn on the Rydberg exhibits?

Where did the HSCA Pathology panel put it?

Where was it in the drawing prepared by Ida Dox?

At this point, you're just trying to prolong the conversation so you can pretend you have a valid argument.

The open-cranium photographs? Where's the suture line?

I thought you were the expert. You pretend to be. You tell me what your issue is. Remember how I said to avoid strawman arguments?

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Hank, the document "Funeral Arrangements for John Fitzgerald Kennedy" recounts events from 11/22/1965 to 11/25/1963. It is not on-the-spot contemporaneous. The passage "CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963" not only comes AFTER it describes the Kennedy staff selecting the new mahogany casket, AND meeting with Bethesda hospital staff and government officials, it says this under "Saturday, November 23, 1963".

When did Kennedy's staff select the casket? David Powers wrote "around midnight". When was the casket delivered? the funeral home "First Call Sheet" says it was 2 AM.

Are you saving your best stuff for later? Because this is pretty weak.

One thing that puzzled me was that the Sibert and O'Neil report states:

At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial:

JOHN VAN HAESEN

EDWIN STROBLE

THOMAS ROBINSON

Mr. HAGEN

Let's assume this was written on the spot while Sibert and O'Neil were still there. If the FBI agents left at around 11:00 - 11:30 PM, then how could they have written this down?

As some of those morticians have said in interviews, they got to witness some of the autopsy procedures. The part in Manchester's book describing the autopsy doctors discovering the original small throat wound around midnight was presumably from Joe Hagan or another Gawler's member.

Well, it's only a fifteen minute drive at most between Gawler's funeral home and Bethesda hospital. The confusion between the accounts of which Gawler's team member came early, who delivered the new casket, who departed Bethesda with the prepared body in the casket, could be explained by the team shuffling back and forth.

 

[BStrong]

This is not the place to use the term "exit wound " loosely. You need evidence for an actual bullet or a piece of a bullet exiting there. snipped

You are the last poster in this thread to correct anyone's use of language or make a demand for further evidence.

There is no evidence for your three ring circus of additional shooters, weapons, calibers, projectiles and wounds and you consistently ignore any request for clarification when you post material produced directly from your fundamental.

I would advise any new readers to go back in the various versions of this thread and read for yourself MJ's body of work. Come to your own conclusions about which posters in this thread have a grip on the established evidence and who doesn't

 

[HSienzant]

Hank, the document "Funeral Arrangements for John Fitzgerald Kennedy" recounts events from 11/22/1965 to 11/25/1963. It is not on-the-spot contemporaneous. The passage "CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963" not only comes AFTER it describes the Kennedy staff selecting the new mahogany casket, AND meeting with Bethesda hospital staff and government officials, it says this under "Saturday, November 23, 1963".

So you think they started to prepare the body on Saturday night after 11pm?
Is that your argument?

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0001a.htm

Clearly, the person who typed this up had the choice of putting that line on the 11/22 page or the 11/23 page. Since the embalming procedures started at 11pm on 11/22 and ended near 4pm on 11/23, they opted to put it on the 11/23 page. Another consideration is the 11/22 page is full. So it wouldn't fit there anyway. And that's why they put the date of 11/22/63 in that sentence. Otherwise it would appear the embalming started after 11pm on Saturday, 11/23.

Or are you going with the actual wording of the document that says
"CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963"?

The first call sheet of Gawler's says the "arrangements" were at 11pm:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md129/html/md129_0001a.htm

When did Kennedy's staff select the casket? David Powers wrote "around midnight". When was the casket delivered? the funeral home "First Call Sheet" says it was 2 AM.

Again, the delivery of the casket could be separate from the morticians beginning the embalming process.

Are you saving your best stuff for later? Because this is pretty weak.

Gee, I was about to say that to YOU.

One thing that puzzled me was that the Sibert and O'Neil report states:

At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial:

JOHN VAN HAESEN

EDWIN STROBLE

THOMAS ROBINSON

Mr. HAGEN

Let's assume this was written on the spot while Sibert and O'Neil [sic] were still there. If the FBI agents left at around 11:00 - 11:30 PM, then how could they have written this down?

Because the autopsy was over (as Sibert and O'Neill noted) and the morticians arrived before they left!

Probably about 11pm. And started the embalming 'after 11pm'.

Doh!

What part of "At the termination of the autopsy" in that memo did you not understand?

You've already argued that the FBI agents left by about 11:30 or so.

At 11:30 the Gawler's funeral home guys arrived at the morgue. The FBI agents Sibert and O'Neil presumed that this marked the near completion of the autopsy, and that nothing else of value would be learned. So, they departed at around this time with their report only referring to the throat wound as a tracheotomy.

That means the morticians got there and started the embalming 'after 11pm', exactly as the document says.

As some of those morticians have said in interviews, they got to witness some of the autopsy procedures.

People almost always inflate their importance years later. Like fish stories. The Sibert and O'Neill memorandum prepared within a few days of the autopsy says the Gawler's people didn't enter the autopsy room until the autopsy was over. You just quoted it above. Here it is again: "At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room..."

So you can believe the contemporaneous FBI memorandum or you can believe the stories the morticians are telling decades later. I know where I'm placing my bet.

The part in Manchester's book describing the autopsy doctors discovering the original small throat wound around midnight was presumably from Joe Hagan or another Gawler's member.

Sorry, this is the conjecture part that is always part of your shtick. It can't be them because they had no business in there before the conclusion of the autopsy, and the FBI memo YOU QUOTED says they only entered after the conclusion of the autopsy.

Well, it's only a fifteen minute drive at most between Gawler's funeral home and Bethesda hospital. The confusion between the accounts of which Gawler's team member came early, who delivered the new casket, who departed Bethesda with the prepared body in the casket, could be explained by the team shuffling back and forth.

Or just plain old human recollection. Which we know is fallible. And which you want to rely on when it supports your case and discard or explain away when it doesn't.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

You are the last poster in this thread to correct anyone's use of language or make a demand for further evidence.

I mostly just shrug when I read his stuff trying to 'educate' us. I think it's pretty clear he hasn't a clue.

There is no evidence for your three ring circus of additional shooters, weapons, calibers, projectiles and wounds and you consistently ignore any request for clarification when you post material produced directly from your fundamental.

I summed it up as unseen shooters shooting unseen rifles firing unheard ammo that caused non-existent damage.

He never did provide any evidence of the shooters, the silenced weapons, any bullets or fragments not traceable to Oswald's weapon, or any damage to any victim that couldn't be linked to Oswald's weapon and ammo.

I would advise any new readers to go back in the various versions of this thread and read for yourself MJ's body of work. Come to your own conclusions about which posters in this thread have a grip on the established evidence and who doesn't

And while you're at it, maybe make a list of all the supposed issues that MicahJava brought up where he ultimately abandoned the argument because he was relying on speculation, hearsay, quotes out of context, logical fallacies, and innuendo instead of actual evidence.

It's easy to say 'all of them', but it would be educational to see how many conspiracy canards he brought up only to see them smashed back in his face like a shuttlecock over the net.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

The funeral arrangements document describes the morticians starting their work AFTER the new casket was delivered.

Do you think the mortician's restoration took two hours longer than the actual autopsy?

The window of time existed. And you've already admitted the George Barnum diary is credible. Looks like the autopsy pathologists knew about the throat wound during the autopsy, like all of those witnesses said.

 

[MicahJava]

Speculation: the passage from the funeral arrangement document's passage "CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963" could be referring to the approximate time when it was confirmed that Gawler's would handle the funeral.

 

[MicahJava]

What part of "At the termination of the autopsy" did you not understand?

FBI agent James Sibert, ARRB deposition 9/11/1997:

So, that was the sequence. So, I would say it was between probably 11:00 and midnight that we left Bethesda. This receipt- I guess, you'll get into that "missile" later on. But this receipt, we signed it. And we assumed that for all practical purposes, the autopsy was over with, and the body would be turned over to the Gawler Funeral Home attendants that were there on the scene. We got their names, so, they had to be there.

Q: What was taking place with the body at the time that you left? Were the autopsy surgeons still there? Had Gawler's started working on the body? What was happening?

A: Well, the autopsy surgeons were still there. I mean, Boswell, Humes, and Finck. But, of course, we were interested in getting this evidence and getting it over to the lab. We knew they were fragments. Probably wouldn't be too valuable in identifying weapons- I mean, matching them with weapons. I don't recall much activity, because they were getting things together, Boswell had been making some drawings there. And Humes had his notes and material. And I think it was sort of a summation getting together, the receipt and all that, and the photographs and the packs of film and X-rays.

Q: But it was your impression that the autopsy had been completed?

A: Yes.

Q: And were people from Gawler's going anything with the body at the time that you left?

A: Not that I can recall. I don't recall them starting to wheel the body out or anything like that. If we had thought there was any more to go on in the way of an autopsy, why, O'Neill and I wouldn't have left. It wasn't necessary that we rush over to the lab. We figured that was the termination of the autopsy.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=796&search=funeral#relPageId=13&tab=page

 

[HSienzant]

Speculation: the passage from the funeral arrangement document's passage "CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963" could be referring to the approximate time when it was confirmed that Gawler's would handle the funeral.

Untrue. See page one, which details all the arrangements that went on prior to the start of the embalming. The very first paragraph says they were notified they were going to handle the embalming at 4:25 on Friday afternoon.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0001a.htm

The full paragraph containing the sentence you're taking out of context (you're ignoring the rest of it) says the work was concluded about 4am on Saturday morning.

That means "the preparation" was of the body.

Here's the full page two:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0002a.htm

And the full paragraph:

CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963. UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MR. HAGAN, THE EMBALMING, COSMETICS, RESTORATION (EXTENSIVE CRANIAL DAMAGE), DRESSING AND CASKETING WAS COMPLETED BY 4 A.M. ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1963.

It's pretty clear it's listing a start time and an end time for the preparation of the body / embalming.

And Humes estimated the autopsy ended at 11pm. And that's consistent with the Gawler's people entering the autopsy room after that and starting the embalming procedures "after 11pm" on Friday night.

And Sibert and O'Neill said the morticians didn't enter the autopsy room until the autopsy was concluded. And you yourself consistently stated that Sibert and O'Neill left about 11:00 -11:30. After the autopsy.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

FBI agent James Sibert, ARRB deposition 9/11/1997...

You could have stopped right there. That's almost 34 years after the events. You've learned nothing about the frailty of human memory, or you have learned about it and you just don't care.

I'm going with the later because if you didn't consistently quote meaningless recollections from the ARRB, you wouldn't have any case.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/memory.htm

The ARRB Final Report itself says this:
The deposition transcripts and other medical evidence that were released by the Review Board should be evaluated cautiously by the public. Often the witnesses contradict not only each other, but sometimes themselves. For events that transpired almost 35 years ago, all persons are likely to have failures of memory. It would be more prudent to weigh all of the evidence, with due concern for human error, rather than take single statements as "proof" for one theory or another.

You're taking single statements as proof. The precise thing the ARRB warned against doing with their 33 years-after-the-fact recollections by witnesses.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

The funeral arrangements document says "11 PM" after describing events that provably happened much later than that, like selecting and delivering the replacement casket.

All you have left is Dr. Humes saying 11 PM to the Warren Commission.

Sibert and O'Neil thought the autopsy was finished when the morticians arrived, yet the actual morticians have described witnessing the autopsy procedures still in progress.

Perhaps when I get all of this stuff together for an essay, and the evidence still supports my timeline once it is compiled in a clear format, this will mark the end of an obscure mystery in the assassination.

 

[HSienzant]

FBI agent James Sibert, ARRB deposition 9/11/1997:
...We got their [Gawler's employees] names, so, they had to be there.

The contemporaneous FBI memorandum says this happened at the conclusion of the autopsy. The contemporaneous Gawler's document says Gawler's personnel "were informed to stand by, until all examinations of the President's body were completed".

They agree, Gawler's people didn't enter the autopsy room until the autopsy was completed.

Q: But it was your impression that the autopsy had been completed?

A: Yes.

So Sibert affirms he thought it was the end of the autopsy, exactly what the contemporaneous memo he signed his name to says.

How does this help you in the least?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

The funeral arrangements document says "11 PM" after describing events that provably happened much later than that, like selecting and delivering the replacement casket.

It says on page one (11/22/63) the casket was *selected*. You quoted Dave Powers as noting this happened "around midnight".

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0001a.htm

The document doesn't note when it was delivered, although other contemporaneous documentation puts it at about 2am.

When the casket is next mentioned, it's about 4am on Saturday morning (see page two) and the body is within it.
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0002a.htm

All you have left is Dr. Humes saying 11 PM to the Warren Commission.

And the contemporaneous record at the bottom of page one here:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0001a.htm
"At this meeting we were informed to stand by, until all examinations of the President's body were completed".

And the contemporaneous record at the top of page two here:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0002a.htm
"CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963"

And the Sibert & O'Neill memo which says the morticians didn't enter the autopsy room until the autopsy was over.
"At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial..."

And your own arguments that Sibert and O'Neill left between 11pm and 11:30 on Friday night.

And Humes statement that he called Perry early Saturday morning, after the autopsy, and Perry's recollection he got the call on Friday. That means the call had to be made by Humes between 12:01am and 12:59am on Saturday morning Washington time for Perry to receive it between 11:01pm and 11:59pm Dallas time. Which affirms what Perry said he heard from Humes, that the autopsy was over.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?
Dr. PERRY - He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?
Dr. PERRY - Autopsy, postmortem examination.

So when Humes called Perry late Friday night Dallas time, the autopsy was done, Humes had his findings, and he wanted to clarify the trache.

All that is internally consistent and puts the autopsy end about 11pm.

Sibert and O'Neil thought the autopsy was finished when the morticians arrived, yet the actual morticians have described witnessing the autopsy procedures still in progress.

True. Contemporaneous records by the FBI versus memories from morticians years or decades later who have every reason to inflate their importance. How many years or decades later?

Which is more likely to be accurate?

Which are you citing as more reliable?

Perhaps when I get all of this stuff together for an essay, and the evidence still supports my timeline once it is compiled in a clear format, this will mark the end of an obscure mystery in the assassination.

There's no mystery here. Obscure or otherwise.

You're in a dark room and you can't explain why your hands are all wet and sticky. You think you've been stroking the elephant's tail.

It's not a mystery to anybody who knows what you're handling.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

It says on page one (11/22/63) the casket was *selected*. It doesn't note when it was delivered.

We know from David Powers' contemporaneous handwritten notes that the casket was *selected* around midnight. That note was written on the spot, or at the latest the next day (Manchester's book implies it was written on the spot). That trumps the funeral arrangements document which was written a week after.

 

[HSienzant]

We know from David Powers' contemporaneous handwritten notes that the casket was *selected* around midnight. That note was written on the spot, or at the latest the next day (Manchester's book implies it was written on the spot).

Then why doesn't it note the precise time? "About midnight" is an estimate. Like something you would write down days, weeks, or months later. When did Powers say he wrote those notes?

Quote the verbiage of Manchester's book concerning Power's notes.

That trumps the funeral arrangements document which was written a week after.

No, there's no conflict. The Gawler document doesn't say when the casket was selected, except for "late evening" on 11/22/63. But the Gawler document is much more highly detailed. It's got times like 4:25pm, 5:58pm, etc. Those aren't estimates. Those are precise times, and that obviously trumps estimates like "about midnight" if we're going with one or the other.

Your presumption is that all of this stuff is in strict chronological order, but you only presume that, you don't establish it.

And that's clearly not the case. Look at the first four paragraphs on page one: https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/md134/html/md134_0001a.htm

There's a phone call at 4:25pm, then shortly thereafter, they are informed some personnel will be arriving to rehearse the deathwatch. They then practice for 'several hours'. That makes it 6:25pm at a minimum (probably after 7:00pm allowing for transport). No matter.

But the next paragraph jumps from at least 6:25pm BACK to 5:58pm to detail what happened then.

And in the fourth paragraph we're back to "approximately 5:00pm".

So the document isn't in strict chronological order. Your presumption is unfounded, and the order of something being listed after something else doesn't imply it happened afterward.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

"Around midnight Ken, Larry, and I picked out a coffin for our President"

-David Powers, Handwritten notes of November 22–23, 1963.

cited in The Death of a President by William Manchester, 1967

This is referring to the mahogany coffin that was then transported along with the morticians that worked on Kennedy.

I just checked my watch..."Around Midnight" is not an actual increment of time.

Plus, who cares?

 

[Axxman300]

I think you've resorted to actual gibberish.

You said Lifton's book proved your theory.

Lifton says all the shots came from the front, that the body was switched at Love Field to be flown back to D.C., the body was surgically altered to hide evidence that ALL THE SHOTS came from the front, and to match the fabricated Oswald evidence.

I'm just pointing out that you had not read his book, just cherry picking stuff out of context per usual. But Lifton is the latest monkey on your back.

 

[Axxman300]

This is not the place to use the term "exit wound " loosely. You need evidence for an actual bullet or a piece of a bullet exiting there.

Exhibit A:

Note the lack of blood pouring out the back of his head indicating no GSW prior to Oswald's second shot.

 

[Axxman300]

The autopsy photographs show the mysterious red triangle in that area of the scalp, not a hole. The open-cranium photographs? Where's the suture line?

Again, pointing out that you have not seen ALL OF THE PHOTOGRAPHS so you cannot say with any authority what they all show.

The exiting fragment is noted in the autopsy report, and is not in question.