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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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Ok, just read it, it says I'm right about everything.

JFK told his biographer to make him a 1000-word-a-minute reader. *

You'd be outdoing JFK by several powers of ten.

Lifton's book is 747 pages.

Good luck convincing anyone you 'just read it' between my post and yours... there's 11 minutes between those two posts. That's roughly 68 pages a minute, or more than a page per second. Your reading comprehension must be minimal.

Hank
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* Score another one for Elizabeth Loftus:
So what about John F. Kennedy and his 1,200 words per minute? Kennedy biographer Richard Reeves looked into this. The 1,200 number comes from an off-the-cuff guess made to Time magazine's White House reporter. The reporter called the Evelyn Wood school where Kennedy had taken his speed reading class, but found that he had no score, as he'd never completed the class and actually been timed. But in what the reporter figured was a bit a PR posturing, the school told him that Kennedy "probably" read 700-800 words per minute. Carver's educated guess is that Kennedy likely read 500-600 words per minute, but may have been able to skim as fast as 1,000. So take the Kennedy claims with a grain of salt.
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4229
 
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Maybe you can fill me in. Did the autopsy findings of Kennedy's back wound come out by 11/29/1963?

Hole in back = Entry wound.

Hole in throat = Exit wound.

Supporting evidence:

Lack of bullet in JFK's body x-rays (they x-rayed him from head to toe).

Fiber evidence from JFK's jacket.

Fiber evidence from JFK's shirt.

Fiber evidence from JFK's necktie.

Wound consistent with size and performance of 6.5x52mm round.
 
I do not see why I should assume "RN" means "Registered Nurse", but you should also know that I wouldn't post on these boards with you all if I was always sober.

Let me get this straight. You are arguing the medical evidence and have no clue what an "RN" is. Can you explain this?

I can.
 
Ok, just read it, it says I'm right about everything.

Weird. Lifton says JFK was shot from the front. There goes your EOP.

Say hi to Badgeman.

Plus...if you had actually read Lifton you'd know he believes the body was surgically altered to support a shot from behind, which undermines all of the crap you've been posting about the autopsy since - as far as Lifton was concerned - it was all a fraud anyway.

For the grown-ups:

Lifton is a cautionary tale about getting sucked into the CT world. He was an engineering student at UCLA when he attended a speech by scam artist Mark Lane. He dropped out of school, and spent the rest of his life "investigating" the assassination. This is a solid profile:

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-20/magazine/tm-206_1_david-lifton

Bottom line, don't be like Dave.
 
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Oh, I understand just fine. You have been saying, for what seems like an eternity, that you believe in the existence of another wound in JFK's skull.
I get that.
Now all you have to do is do the maths. Show what kind of gun fired the bullet, show where you think it was fired from, then show the evidence for the existence of bullet, gun and shooter.
Now, an unkind person might comment that you won't do this becuase you can't. You have no additional bullet, no witnesses for a shooter, no plausible location for said gunman, not even an attempt at the identity, motives or fate of said gunman, nothing.
I am not that unkind person. I will assume you have this evidence, and just haven't got round to presenting it yet.
I think now would be a good time. I cannot recall anyone losing a debate as badly as you are. You have literally been wrong about everything, and shown to be so over and over again. You need to remedy this.
The unkind would again predict that you will dodge, deflect and distract, but I have faith. I believe you will rise to this challenge.
Don't make me a disappointed Yak. That would be cruel.

Do you have to solve a mystery to prove that there is one? It looks like one of the biggest mysteries in the assassination right now is what happened to the projectile that created the EOP wound.

Or are you referring to the large head wound being created by a separate, tangential shot? Well, why are there trace amounts of metal (presumably bullet lead) on the OUTER SURFACE of the harper fragment right next to the external beveling?

One-zero to the unkind.
Dodge, deflect, distract. How disappointingly predictable.
You now want to add an assumed missing bullet to the missing wound, presumably fired from a missing gun by a gunman who is also missing, from a location you refuse to speculate on.
What's also missing are your calculations as to the probable whereabouts of this elusive sniper. And any evidence at all to support any of the other parts of this second shooter theory.
Oh, and any sign that you have any intention of providing this evidence.

Well, I tried. I'm just going to sit back for a while and watch you continue to lose in such a spectacular fashion. Most entertaining!
:popcorn1
 
Weird. Lifton says JFK was shot from the front. There goes your EOP. Say hi to Badgeman.

And only the front! That's so the back could remain 'unmarked', ready for the conspirators to frame Oswald by putting entry holes there. Of course, Lifton is silent about things like wounds on living people looking nothing like cutting into dead ones, what kind of ammo the conspirators used that could kill, remain in one piece, but not penetrate a body fully (regardless of whether the bullet hit soft tissue like a neck or hard bone like a skull), and where the conspirators were shooting from. All points that need answers, but none are forthcoming from Lifton.

He also apparently never asked himself "Why would the conspirators do it this way?"

According to Lifton, they had Oswald's weapon, and shells, fragments, and a nearly whole bullet to plant (he doesn't deal with how they got the rifle anywhere in his 747 page book, it's apparently just a given in his world), so they could frame Oswald. But if they had Oswald's weapon, why not just shoot JFK from the Depository and leave the weapon behind, thereby framing Oswald in a much easier fashion than having to leave the weapon and shells behind in the Depository AND altering the body and ensuring the real shooters are unseen and planting fragments in the limo and a nearly whole bullet at Parkland.*


Plus...if you had actually read Lifton you'd know he believes the body was surgically altered to support a shot from behind, which undermines all of the crap you've been posting about the autopsy since - as far as Lifton was concerned - it was all a fraud anyway.

And apparently they altered Connally's wounds too! Remember, his wounds point to being shot from behind as well.


For the grown-ups:

Lifton is a cautionary tale about getting sucked into the CT world. He was an engineering student at UCLA when he attended a speech by scam artist Mark Lane. He dropped out of school, and spent the rest of his life "investigating" the assassination. This is a solid profile:

http://articles.latimes.com/1988-11-20/magazine/tm-206_1_david-lifton

I've also said the best thing the publisher did with that book was insist David re-write it to make it in the first person, telling us what he thought and when. It's an eerie look into how a person's mind goes from "The evidence doesn't fit any conspiracy theory" to "The conspiracy is even bigger than I thought!"

Lifton was not a medical person, of course, and trying to wedge the square evidence of shots from behind from Oswald's weapon into his round theory of shooters in the front and medical alterations to JFK's body to frame Oswald meant he had to ignore a whole slew of problems with his theory.

He's gotten to the point where he is now saying the Parkland doctors were the ones who were originally part of the plot, oblivious to the fact that many of their observations were what he relied on 50 years ago to determine there was a conspiracy in the first place.


Bottom line, don't be like Dave.

Too late!

Sadly, too many CTs are so wedded to their favorite conspiracy theory, it appears no amount of evidence will sway them. Look at some of the more frequent CTs who have posted here: Robert Prey, Bob Harris, and now MicahJava.

Hank
_____________________

* MicahJava has argued that the bullet recovered in Parkland was NOT CE399. Which means the conspirators planted the wrong bullet, then had to swap it out for the 'right one' (one traceable to Oswald's weapon). But somehow, MicahJava doesn't see this as a problem, as everything Lifton wrote proves MJ right, somehow.
 
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JFK told his biographer to make him a 1000-word-a-minute reader. *

You'd be outdoing JFK by several powers of ten.

Lifton's book is 747 pages.

Good luck convincing anyone you 'just read it' between my post and yours... there's 11 minutes between those two posts. That's roughly 68 pages a minute, or more than a page per second. Your reading comprehension must be minimal.

Hank
______________
* Score another one for Elizabeth Loftus:
So what about John F. Kennedy and his 1,200 words per minute? Kennedy biographer Richard Reeves looked into this. The 1,200 number comes from an off-the-cuff guess made to Time magazine's White House reporter. The reporter called the Evelyn Wood school where Kennedy had taken his speed reading class, but found that he had no score, as he'd never completed the class and actually been timed. But in what the reporter figured was a bit a PR posturing, the school told him that Kennedy "probably" read 700-800 words per minute. Carver's educated guess is that Kennedy likely read 500-600 words per minute, but may have been able to skim as fast as 1,000. So take the Kennedy claims with a grain of salt.
https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4229

Okay, so how did Barnum know about the back wound only a week after?
 
He was at the autopsy, wasn't he?

What was his role there?

How long did he stay?

Hank

He had contact with Burkley shortly after or later during the autopsy. Burkley informed him and his other guys that Kennedy had a bullet wound in his "lower neck", and one "near his throat". This was recorded in his diary a week after.
 
He had contact with Burkley shortly after or later during the autopsy. Burkley informed him and his other guys that Kennedy had a bullet wound in his "lower neck", and one "near his throat". This was recorded in his diary a week after.

After a week he got the details of a conversation wrong?

Hardly surprising.
 
He had contact with Burkley shortly after or later during the autopsy. Burkley informed him and his other guys that Kennedy had a bullet wound in his "lower neck", and one "near his throat". This was recorded in his diary a week after.

Well, which is it? "During", "shortly after", or "later"? Could you be more imprecise?

And this is conspiracy evidence exactly why?

How late was Barnum at Bethesda?

Did he leave at midnight when the autopsy concluded, or was he there later, until after the morticians finished up?

Here's the entry as you posted it: "We then proceeded to take the casket into the hospital in an orderly fashion. [Dr. Burkley, said, regarding the shots that hit JFK that] "The first striking him in the lower neck and coming out near the throat".

Who added the parenthetical phrase, MicahJava, and where's the evidence that THAT?

Hank
 
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After a week he got the details of a conversation wrong?

Hardly surprising.

MicahJava will ignore this, no doubt, but Barnum also said this after a week about the head shot, 'The second shot striking him above and to the rear of the right ear, this shot not coming out…", according to David Lifton in BEST EVIDENCE. So we know he got that wrong.

And of course, MicahJava also referred to Barnum's account as 'garbled' and said there was a certain amount of 'incoherence' in it.

Right here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931291&postcount=962

So he admits Barnum's statement was garbled and incoherent in places, and can be wrong. But not here. Not here.

Because here he needs Barnum to be right. That's his whole case in a nutshell.

Hank
 
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After a week he got the details of a conversation wrong?

Hardly surprising.

OMG, are you seriously saying that Barnum fabricated the "lower neck" bullet wound information out of thin air, and by pure coincidence it happened to coincide with the fact that Kennedy had a bullet wound in his back (at that time, often refereed to as the "upper neck")?
 
OMG, are you seriously saying that Barnum fabricated the "lower neck" bullet wound information out of thin air, and by pure coincidence it happened to coincide with the fact that Kennedy had a bullet wound in his back (at that time, often refereed to as the "upper neck")?

No, I am not suggesting he fabricated anything.
I'm suggesting that after a week, he got remembered things askew, because I know that is what humans do. After a few days, people writing statements get details confused and wrong, but that does not mean they fabricate anything. Something towards the upper back, leading to the throat, may be remembered as lower neck rather than upper back. It is an honest recollection, but it is limited by human ability.
Did you not understand that in my statement, or is this an attempt at a strawman?
 
No, I am not suggesting he fabricated anything.
I'm suggesting that after a week, he got remembered things askew, because I know that is what humans do. After a few days, people writing statements get details confused and wrong, but that does not mean they fabricate anything. Something towards the upper back, leading to the throat, may be remembered as lower neck rather than upper back. It is an honest recollection, but it is limited by human ability.
Did you not understand that in my statement, or is this an attempt at a strawman?

The back wound was not public knowledge on 11/29/1963. So you have few options for explaining the Barnum diary, dated 11/29/1963. It looks like Barnum's story is correct and the doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy, and not the day after.
 
The back wound was not public knowledge on 11/29/1963. So you have few options for explaining the Barnum diary, dated 11/29/1963. It looks like Barnum's story is correct and the doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy, and not the day after.

And none of those options point to a conspiracy, or another head shot, or a different interpretation of the wounds.
Any way you cut it, allowing for the obvious explanation being "somebody misremembered details", it remains remarkably mundane: At some point in the autopsy process, the doctors spoke to Parkland, learned the cuts to the throat required for an attempt to save JFK's life obscured an exit wound, they re-examined the evidence, and realised the back wound exited the throat.

What, if any, pertinent point are you trying to make, that could possibly have an impact on your "theory"?
 
The back wound was not public knowledge on 11/29/1963.

What part of "he was at Bethesda during the autopsy" did you not understand?


So you have few options for explaining the Barnum diary, dated 11/29/1963. It looks like Barnum's story is correct and the doctors knew about the throat wound during the autopsy, and not the day after.

What, by the way, was he doing there in the first place? Can you tell us?

When did he arrive, when did he leave?

Hank
 
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And none of those options point to a conspiracy, or another head shot, or a different interpretation of the wounds.
Any way you cut it, allowing for the obvious explanation being "somebody misremembered details", it remains remarkably mundane: At some point in the autopsy process, the doctors spoke to Parkland, learned the cuts to the throat required for an attempt to save JFK's life obscured an exit wound, they re-examined the evidence, and realised the back wound exited the throat.

What, if any, pertinent point are you trying to make, that could possibly have an impact on your "theory"?

His argument has been the doctors knew during the autopsy about the tracheostomy being over a bullet wound, but for some reason (he hasn't said what) lied about that and moved it to the next morning.

Humes (who made the call) testified it was Saturday morning. Dr. Perry (who received the call) remembered it as Friday, but admitted it could be later. Humes said it was one call. Perry said there were two.

Upon this, his entire conspirary hinges.

But Humes initially didn't pin down a time. He just said 'early Saturday morning'.

Dr. Humes testimony:

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir; I did. I had the impression from seeing the wound that it represented a surgical tracheotomy wound, a wound frequently made by surgeons when people are in respiratory distress to give them a free airway.
To ascertain that point, I called on the telephone Dr. Malcolm Perry and discussed with him the situation of the President's neck when he first examined the President, and asked him had he in fact done a tracheotomy which was somewhat redundant because I was somewhat certain he had.
He said, yes; he had done a tracheotomy and that as the point to perform his tracheotomy he used a wound which he had interpreted as a missile wound in the low neck, as the point through which to make the tracheotomy incision.
Mr. SPECTER - When did you have that conversation with him, Dr. Humes?
Commander HUMES - I had that conversation early on Saturday morning, sir.
Mr. SPECTER - On Saturday morning, November 23d?
Commander HUMES - That is correct, sir.
...
Mr. SPECTER - In response to Mr. Dulles' question a moment ago, Doctor Humes, you commented that they did not turn him over at Parkland. Will you state for the record what the source of your information is on that?
Commander HUMES - Yes. This is a result of a personal telephone conversation between myself and Dr. Malcolm Perry early in the morning of Saturday, November 23.
Mr. SPECTER - At that time did Doctor Perry tell you specifically, Doctor Humes, that the Parkland doctors had not Observed the wound in the President's back?
Commander HUMES - He told me that the President was on his back from the time he was brought into the hospital until the time he left it, and that at no time was he turned from his back by the doctors.
Mr. SPECTER - And at the time of your conversation with Doctor Perry did you tell Doctor Perry anything of your observations or conclusions?
Commander HUMES - No, sir; I did not.


Dr. Perry's testimony:
Mr. SPECTER - When did that conversation occur?
Dr. PERRY - My knowledge as to the exact accuracy of it is obviously in doubt. I was under the initial impression that I talked to him on Friday, but I understand it was on Saturday. I didn't recall exactly when.
Mr. SPECTER - Do you have an independent recollection at this moment as to whether it was on Friday or Saturday?
Dr. PERRY - No, sir; I have thought about it again and the events surrounding that weekend were very kaleidoscopic, and I talked with Dr. Humes on two occasions, separated by a very short interval of, I think it was, 30 minutes or an hour or so, it could have been a little longer.
Mr. SPECTER - What was the medium of your conversation?
Dr. PERRY - Over the telephone.
Mr. SPECTER - Did he identify himself to you as Dr. Humes of Bethesda?
Dr. PERRY - He did.


Of course, there's a simple explanation for this that MicahJava never considered.

They both could be right.

There's an hour difference between Washington and Dallas. When it is 1:00 AM in Washington, it is midnight in Dallas.

So Humes could have made the phone call at a few minutes before 1:00 AM Washington time on 11/23/63 (AKA 'early Saturday morning') and Perry would have received that call late Friday night Dallas time (like 11:55 PM on 11/22/63).

Humes said the autopsy concluded about 11pm Washington time on the 22nd:
Commander HUMES - The examination was concluded approximately at 11 o'clock on the night of November 22.

So there's about two hours for Humes to think about all this stuff and then call Perry almost two hours after the autopsy concluded.

Perry himself said he wasn't sure of exactly when the phone call came from Humes. Bear in mind he was on shift on 12:30PM (early afternoon) at Parkland on 11/22/63. He wasn't a resident (another word MicahJava won't understand, like RN), so he likely wasn't still on duty at midnight. More than likely he was asleep at home when Humes called.

MicahJava, while focusing on the discrepancy that Perry recalled two phone calls to Humes one, and the difference in recollection between Saturday morning and Friday night, ignores that Dr. Perry confirmed the substance of the call as Humes recalled it, and the purpose of the phone call was to talk about the trache wound Dr. Humes saw:

Mr. SPECTER - Would you state as specifically as you can recollect the conversation that you first had with him?
Dr. PERRY - He advised me that he could not discuss with me the findings of necropsy, that he had a few questions he would like to clarify. The initial phone call was in relation to my doing a tracheotomy. Since I had made the incision directly through the wound in the neck, it made it difficult for them to ascertain the exact nature of this wound. Of course, that did not occur to me at the time. I did what appeared to me to be medically expedient. And when I informed him that there was a wound there and I suspected an underlying wound of the trachea and even perhaps of the great vessels he advised me that he thought this action was correct and he said he could not relate to me any of the other findings.
Mr. SPECTER - Would you relate to me in lay language what necropsy is?
Dr. PERRY - Autopsy, postmortem examination.


MicahJava likes to pretend all this occurred during the autopsy, but it clearly occurred afterward.

And according to Dr. Perry, this is the first time Dr. Humes learned of a bullet wound in the throat.

Note: Edited to add much more detail.

Hank
 
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His argument has been the doctors knew during the autopsy about the tracheostomy being over a bullet wound, but for some reason (he hasn't said what) lied about that and moved it to the next morning.

Humes (who made the call) testified it was Saturday morning. Dr. Perry (who received the call) remembered it as about midnight. Humes said it was one call. Perry said there were two.

Upon this, his entire conspirary hinges.

Hank

If it were about midnight, it would be the next morning...
But you are quite right: Misremembering is the obvious answer before conspiracy.
They were asked some time afterwards, and as anybody who has to log time-sensitive information in legal documents (e.g. Anybody in industry filling in a log book or permit to work) would tell you, if you don't note times as calls come in, you very quickly lose track of time and estimates or best guesses of when procedure A happened, will vary wildly, even after a few hours.
When you are concentrating on something other than time, it is very difficult to pin point how long you have been pootling about with your paper work, or tasks.
 
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