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Gratitude, Compulsion, Idiocy or Nobility?

You still don't understand the burden of proof. Of course JayUtah is disputing the "religious proofs" you have provided, because they are worthless for the reasons he has patiently explained.

Yes you have often been provided with evidence that disproves homeopathy but we didn't need to do that to reject the claims made by homeopaths. As long as homeopaths failed to provide evidence for their claims, those claims can be rejected out of hand. The fact that there is also evidence against them strengthens the case against accepting the claims, but that case was already pretty strong.

Having said that, evidence has been provided against your current claim. Once again, as JayUtah says, "Examples from nature have been shown to you that dispute your religion. Examples from science have been shown to you that dispute your religion. Examples from comparative religion have been shown to you that dispute your claim that your religion ought to be considered universal". So the case against your claim has been strengthened, whilst you have still to provide any meaningful evidence to support it.

Just avoid religious telling by comparing at par to modern medicine non A&F proving. Neither it not this forum justify it. Actually, I feel science people are not fit to discuss in this forum.Simply, religious existances in their literature, faith, practices, history and people is sufficient religious proof, nothing else. You may dispute anything not liked by you by the theory of MPOVs or non-absolutism or Anekantvad(theory of relativety?).

Sorry, Please avoid further discussions here.
 
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Actually, I feel science people are not fit to discuss in this forum.
The International Skeptics Forum is, as the name suggests, specifically for sceptical discussion. There is no instruction that for the Religion and Philosophy subforum critical thinking skills should be left at the door, so they will be applied in it.

The only people not fit to participate in a discussion are those who know so little about the topic that they have no valid contribution to make. That certainly does not include the likes of JayUtah, who has demonstrated himself to be very well informed about the topics which are the subject of this subforum. Please ask yourself which poster has shown themselves to be least informed, and therefore least fit to participate.

Sorry, Please avoid further discussions here.

I'll continue to post on this thread for as long as I like, or until the mods close it.
 
The International Skeptics Forum is, as the name suggests, specifically for sceptical discussion. There is no instruction that for the Religion and Philosophy subforum critical thinking skills should be left at the door, so they will be applied in it.

T.

It is not necessary. Have it been specially mandated by ISF?
 
No, I am asking burden of proof from you for what you claimed. Provide A&F proofs.

YOU are the one who brought A&F to the discussion; it is YOU who should provide at least potential support for it. A workable definition would be even nicer.
 
It's kind of in the name if you missed it. Sceptics/skeptics depending on whether you speak proper English or other English.

I feel, I could not realize skeptics esp some may be eternally doubting people.
 
I feel, I could not realize skeptics esp some may be eternally doubting people.
Sceptics are not eternally doubting people. You'll find very few who doubt that homeopathy and astrology are nonsense, for example. Sceptics just require a certain minimum of objective evidence before seriously considering any claim.
 
If Al Einstein really said that, I'll excuse him. In the sciences and engineering, when a man steps out of his field, he pretty often makes a fool of himself. Geniuses too.

Although that supposed quote is only a rather tepid endorsement of jainery.

BTW folks: You're assuming that Mahakumar knows the meaning of "burden of proof." You really shouldn't do that. IMHO. (STFU, sackett. GTFO. Go watch a DVD.)
 
I feel, I could not realize skeptics esp some may be eternally doubting people.

Or conversely we could say that some religions people are eternally credulous people.

Rational skepticism is no more that expecting allegations of fact to be supported by testable evidence. You clearly don't know what evidence or testability means in this context. Your approach is explicitly the opposite of rational skepticism. Whereas a skeptic would alter his beliefs to match the facts, you selectively accept facts based on whether they match your beliefs. You don't know what constitutes evidence of a claim, or even the difference between evidence and claim.

This will make your stay here frustrating and painful unless you either come to appreciate skepticism or else change your ways. This forum is not a safe space for religious beliefs, such that facts are ignored and naked claims demand respect. Here, claims you make from a religious perspective will be vigorously put to the test. That is what skepticism does. Now you can argue abstractly what degree of credulity or skepticism is appropriate in any given situation. But keep in mind that while you're here, the discussion is being hosted by people who lean very heavily on the side of requiring testable evidence for claims.
 
Probably but mostly, basic clues to basis of any science should be past understandings--religious, logical, astrology or otherwise. We should not be so proudy that we were/are the ONLY.

Today under current state, we may not able to create but just can RE-search, DIS-cover, know etc. of already created in past.

Ah yes the wonders of the thoughts of the past:
'past understandings--religious, logical, astrology or otherwise'
-slavery
-genocide
-misogny
-torture
-racism
-imperialism
 
If Al Einstein really said that, I'll excuse him.

He didn't. Enough nonsense has been attributed to him that there is a cottage industry among students of his work to vet those allegations. Einstein is not the only victim of misattribution, of course. The desired statements are commonly attributed to famous thinkers -- especially noted scientists -- in order to give them gravity (pun intended). These statements vary from common aphorisms (e.g., "Insanity means doing the same thing and expecting different results") to self-serving statements (e.g., astronauts endorsing Islam). Even in the dominant fringe religion where I live (Mormonism) there are claims that important people have in some way endorsed the Mormon faith. Among the religious this seems to be a common practice aimed at mainstreaming their beliefs.

Sadly Einstein did say some fairly wacky things. This is what makes him a frequent target for stuff like what Kumar is trying to do. You can find enough legitimately documented Einstein quotes to make it seem plausible that Einstein would have said some particular thing, even if it's not related to physics. And really, when it's believers telling themselves things, it's not as if everyone's going to rush off and try to confirm the quote. That's how the attribution game is played.

In the sciences and engineering, when a man steps out of his field, he pretty often makes a fool of himself. Geniuses too.

Quite right. Albert Einstein was one of the first celebrity physicists. And this made him a particular case. The public was all too happy to give him full and exclusive credit for the theory of relativity, when in fact it was more a collective effort. Einstein made a crucial finding that put others' work in an effective perspective, and that's an important thing. Moving forward, Einstein's respect among scientists didn't last, especially when he rejected quantum mechanics. So he started relying more and more upon lay public attention to build interest in his follow-on work. Unfortunately, before he learned how the media worked -- especially how the media treated celebrities -- he allowed a fair amount of oddball commentary to enter the public record attached to his name.

Geniuses don't always have to step far outside their fields of specialty in order to make mistakes. Yet another celebrity physicist, Michio Kaku, has spoken publicly on points of space engineering and the history of space exploration, and has sometimes made clear factual errors. When I try to correct those for people who cite him, the corrections often fall on deaf ears. "Are you saying one of the most famous physicists in the world is wrong?" "Yes! Yes, I am, because he is."

In case it's not obvious, many celebrity scientists don't enjoy nearly as high a reputation among their science peers as they do among their adoring fans. This is precisely because they're not always right and not always innovative and not always representing the science. Just as it's not too far a leap to suppose that an astrophysicist would also be an expert in space engineering, it's not too far for the media to leap to suppose that someone who unraveled the physics of the universe would also have authoritative answers (or at least informed opinions) on its metaphysics. Celebrity scientists drift into hic sunt dracones waters because the questions they're asked are the ones the public really wants answers to. The property of celebrity demands a congeniality that in turn demands an answer, even if it's a poorly supported one. And from metaphysics it's not a large leap to each individual scientist's personal beliefs, usually wrongly presuming that a scientist's personal beliefs have the same rigorous basis as his science findings. "Well if Einstein believes in God, then there really must be one because Einstein is a smart guy."

Did Einstein endorse Jainism? No, he didn't. But even if he had, upon what basis would that endorsement have been made? What makes Einstein an important physicist is the work he produced in the vernacular of scholarly physics. The real work behind Einstein's genius was grindingly tedious mathematics that had to pass muster among all those similarly qualified. It takes great effort to get that right, and it's on the shoulders of that work that the conclusions stand. He didn't put that rigor into the offhand comments he made on the record.

BTW folks: You're assuming that Mahakumar knows the meaning of "burden of proof." You really shouldn't do that. IMHO. (STFU, sackett. GTFO. Go watch a DVD.)

Hehe, I'm actually assuming he doesn't know what "burden of proof" means. But his ignorance of the concept doesn't mean it doesn't exist and doesn't affect his argument.
 
Or conversely we could say that some religions people are eternally credulous people.

Rational skepticism is no more that expecting allegations of fact to be supported by testable evidence. You clearly don't know what evidence or testability means in this context. Your approach is explicitly the opposite of rational skepticism. Whereas a skeptic would alter his beliefs to match the facts, you selectively accept facts based on whether they match your beliefs. You don't know what constitutes evidence of a claim, or even the difference between evidence and claim.

This will make your stay here frustrating and painful unless you either come to appreciate skepticism or else change your ways. This forum is not a safe space for religious beliefs, such that facts are ignored and naked claims demand respect. Here, claims you make from a religious perspective will be vigorously put to the test. That is what skepticism does. Now you can argue abstractly what degree of credulity or skepticism is appropriate in any given situation. But keep in mind that while you're here, the discussion is being hosted by people who lean very heavily on the side of requiring testable evidence for claims.

Few drinks initially can lead to its addiction. Where doubting land you, no end. I do not anticipate non A&F evidences as I have very very bad experiences even with 98/99% surity. As science is not anticipated to provide A&F evidences, it is impossible for me to accept or give A&F evidences till science become A&F. So do not base me for it nor I shall base your non A&F evidences. Just discuss with me, if you like, with hope to achieve A&F on any lucky day nothing else partly cooked. Sorry.
 
Were these part of nature?

The religious people who practiced those abhorrent practices certainly thought so. For hundreds of years, for example, chattel slavery was justified within and without religion by arguments that cherry-picked evidence and begged a number of questions to appear to support a conclusion that the enslaved were naturally or inherently inferior and thus merited their station.

The lesson we learned from this is that just because a religion speaks well of itself and purports to be pure or natural doesn't mean it really is.
 
Few drinks initially can lead to its addiction. Where doubting land you, no end.

No, this is known as the Slippery Slope fallacy. You commit this fallacy when you argue that even one allowance of an unfavorable condition will inevitably lead to a situation that would arise if the allowance were taken to absurd lengths.

Rational skepticism does not embrace unreasonable doubt.

I do not anticipate non A&F evidences as I have very very bad experiences even with 98/99% surity.

As we discussed, you have this attitude because you do not understand how statistical reasoning works.

As science is not anticipated to provide A&F evidences, it is impossible for me to accept or give A&F evidences till science become A&F.

No, imposing idiotically unreasonable standards of proof on your critics does not allow you to escape facts. Further, you apply your standard of proof only to your critics, not to yourself. You are evidently a Jain, and you evidently believe most things that have been told to you about Jainism. However when I pointed out that the history of you religion -- as with the histories of most religions -- documents schisms and differences of interpretation, you lay those aside as if they had no consequence. You tell us that even with the doubt and disagreement produced by schism in the faith, it's still probably true enough to believe it. You're willing to allow an inductive leap when it comes to your own beliefs, but you disallow it for your critics' arguments. Thats special pleading, which is another fallacy.

You claim your argument is logical. I've shown you in this post two examples of common fallacies that you've committed in making your argument. Therefore your argument is not logically correct.
 
Btw, what is begging a question? I really do not understand it.

Clearly you don't understand it, because it's the central fallacy that dooms your argument.

Be careful in your research, however, because the phrase "begging the question" is commonly (but incorrectly) used in colloquial English to mean simply to raise a question. If, for example, the trains aren't running some day and you have someplace to be, you could, in English, say, "The trains aren't running. That begs the question of how I'm going to get to work." This is not the usage we're talking about here.

In the vernacular of discussing principles of logic in English, the word "question" doesn't necessarily mean an interrogative statement. The "question" can mean simply one of the propositions under discussion. The actual question, if any, would be whether that proposition is true or false.

In logic, to beg the proposition (or question) means to assume it's true without any evidence that it is. We use the word "beg" because the effect of an argument that does this is to beg the critic to accept a testable premise as true without providing any evidence. It conveys the notion of his demanding something to which he is not strictly entitled -- hence, begging.

Your OP asks what must be going on in the heads of freed animals, such that they return to their captors to be used as food. That's based on the proposition that animals have emotional and cognitive abilities that would enable such thought. You didn't provide any evidence for that proposition; you just assumed it was true and required all your critics to accept it as true when formulating their rebuttals. In logic terms, you begged the question of animals' cognitive ability. And appropriately, right there in the first few responses on Page 1, people told you what you were doing wrong.
 

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