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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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Dr. Humes continued being present with the body as it was having the Mortician's reconstruction done through the early morning hours. One of the Gawler's Funeral Home people arrived to the autopsy at 11:30 PM, and he described that soon after that one of the three Dr.'s contacted Parkland Hospital and learned about the original throat wound.

And how many decades after the fact did "one of the Gawler's Funeral Home people" say that? I thought you said your arguments could be made from 1960s recollections only. Here you are pulling a 33-year after the event recollection out of your hind parts.

Why can't you make your argument from recollections from the 1960s? Because if you don't have faulty recollections to fall back on, you don't have a case.

Hank
 
Where did the EOP bullet go? There are explanations without anything being faked.

Begging the question once more. You haven't established the existence of this "EOP bullet", and begging it into existence hardly counts as evidence for its existence.

Hank
 

So Lattimer's experiment was wrong? Because a conspiracy theorist says Lattimer admitted to it?

You haven't learned anything about how trustworthy conspiracy theorists are.

The answer is "not very". I doubt highly any of that transpired, but it doesn't matter in any case.

A incorrectly designed experiment by Lattimer doesn't mean you are right.

Let's assume Lattimer admitted that the wound was in the EOP. Your own cited conspiracy theorist says Lattimer conceded an entry wound at the EOP and a curved track from entry to exit in the head would account for the wounds as we know them:

On March 24, 2004, Lattimer wrote Canal: “It does seem to me that you and your colleagues have made great progress in investigating these points, and the curved track in the brain is not only reasonable but is probably demonstrable.”

How do you get from there to an EOP bullet exiting the throat?

You can't.

So this is much ado about nothing. It doesn't establish your argument is true. It doesn't overturn the conclusions of Lattimer, the autopsists, and the HSCA forensic pathology panel that the bullet that struck the back of the head exited the skull near the top-right side of the head.

It simply means - at worst - that Lattimer's test didn't test the true entry wound location.

But then it also means the original tests conducted for the Warren Commission, which put the entry wound location near the EOP were more accurate. And what did the expert who conducted those tests conclude?

Here you go:
Mr. SPECTER, Dr. Olivier, in the regular course of your work for the U.S. Army, do you have occasion to perform tests on reconstructed human skulls to determine the effects of bullets on skulls?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you have occasion to conduct such a test in connection with the series which you are now describing?
Dr. OLIVIER. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline briefly the procedures for simulating the human skull?
Dr. OLIVIER. Human skulls, we take these human skulls and they are imbedded and filled with 20 percent gelatin. As I mentioned before, 20 percent gelatin is a pretty good simulant for body tissues.
They are in the moisture content. When I say 20 percent, it is 20 percent weight of the dry gelatin, 80 percent moisture.
The skull, the cranial cavity, is filled with this and the surface is coated with a gelatin and then it is trimmed down to approximate the thickness of the tissues overlying the skull, the soft tissues of the head.
Mr. SPECTER. And at what distance were these tests performed?
Dr. OLIVIER. These tests were performed at a distance of 90 yards.
Mr. SPECTER. And what gun was used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was a 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano that was marked Commission Exhibit 139.
Mr. SPECTER. What bullets were used?
Dr. OLIVIER. It was the 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano Western ammunition lot 6,000.
Mr. SPECTER. What did that examination or test, rather, disclose?
Dr. OLIVIER. It disclosed that the type of head wounds that the President received could be done by this type of bullet. This surprised me very much, because this type of a stable bullet I didn't think would cause a massive head wound, I thought it would go through making a small entrance and exit, but the bones of the skull are enough to deform the end of this bullet causing it to expend a lot of energy and blowing out the side of the skull or blowing out fragments of the skull.


So either Lattimer's tests are accurate and showed Oswald's bullets could create that damage to the head or Olivier's tests are accurate and showed Oswald's bullets could create that damage to the head.

You don't get around the problem by saying Lattimer tested the wrong entry wound location.

Hank
 
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...The book is also the source of a Gawler's funeral home employee that told Manchester that the autopsy doctors contacted Parkland hospital and discovered the throat wound at around midnight.

I wouldn't go sourcing William Manchester's book as evidence for the single-assassin theory.

Gee, conspiracy theorists generally denigrate Manchester's book because he concluded Oswald was the lone assassin. You're telling us he's reliable?

Hank
 
Copied from a previous long comment of mine:

From the 1971 paper in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, Photographic Evidence and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy by physicist Don Olson and criminalist Ralph Turner:

"The Warren Commission believed that frames 225-230 represented the President's reactions to a shot fired somewhere in the interval of Zapruder frames 210-224, while the President was behind the road sign. However, certain observations in the Zapruder film will be noted here to indicate that the first wounding of the President may not have been blocked from the record by the road sign. The transition in the President's appearance between frames 183 and 230 (described above) in fact seems to begin with certain reactions in the intervals of frames 194-206.

First, a general trend in the frames 194-206 may be noted. Beginning as early as frame 194, the President's body seems to undergo a motion forward and to the left. This motion, which can be visually approximated to be on the order of six or seven inches, seems to begin in frame 194 and continues through about frame 200. The President seems to move away from the seat back and tilt to to the left, away from the window ledge.
"

...

"Study of the frames reveals further information. Recalling the descriptions above, it is clear that between frames 183 and 230, two specific changes occurred in the President's position. First, the President turned his head and shoulders back from the crowd until he was facing forward. Also, the President's right arm moved from a position with the elbow below a chrome strip on the outside of the car, into a position with the arm and elbow well inside the car and raised almost to chin level. These frames and motions have been described in such great detail because both of these specific changes in Kennedy can be observed to occur in the "early Zapruder frames," i.e., those before the President disappears from view behind the road sign. In this context, It happens that frame 204 is very important.

On the interval the President's body is seen to narrow somewhat to the view, indicating that he not only leans to the Left front, but also is rotated to the left. The rotation of the shoulders begins as early as frame 195. His head comes around at 200-202. By frame 204 the President is facing almost directly forward.

As the President moves and rotates to the left, his right arm is pulled back into the car. While his elbow has been resting outside the car, it comes up noticeably at frame 195. The President's elbow can be seen to cross the chrome strip on the side of the car at frames As President Kennedy disappears from view behind the sign, his right arm seems to he in a particularly unusual position the clearly visible gray of his suit coat indicating that his right arm and elbow have been raised at least to the level of his chin.
"

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Journal%20of%20Forensic%20Science/Item%2001.pdf



From the 9/12/1978 testimony of Calvin McCamy, spokesman for the HSCA photographic evidence panel:

"...There is considerable blurring at this point. The President's arm is up in a waving position. His head is still toward the right. At this point there is considerable blur, and by here, it appears as though his head is beginning to turn quite rapidly to the left. His head is now to the left. That is only one-eighteenth of a second from one frame to the next. He continues to look toward the left. One barely sees his right ear toward the camera. It is quite clear he is here now looking directly at his wife. He and his wife can be seen looking at one another in this sequence. He now goes behind the sign, and only a fraction of a second later we see his hands moving upward. He has a gasping expression. His hands are in a classic position of a person who has been startled. He now begins to raise his arms into what I would call a defensive position. He may be clutching at the throat wound."

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81#relPageId=148&tab=page


From the HSCA photographic evidence panel's final report:

64. (a) By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207 as he is seen going behind a street sign that obstructed Zapruder's view.

...

70. At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=958#relPageId=22&tab=page


HSCA photographic expert Cecil Kirk's testimony at the 1986 mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGsD8i3qOgo&t=2m55s

Notice how Bugliosi is using evidence of conspiracy as evidence of whatever the hell he believes in (he doesn't address the z190+ problems in his book Reclaiming History)!!

Not to mention the photograph taken by Dealey Plaza witness Phillip Willis, corresponding to Zapruder frame 206-210, which he always swore was snapped as a startle reaction to hearing the first shot.

None of the above is evidence of a bullet strike. It's evidence of a bullet shot sometime before frame Z210.

It seems like a lot of quoting to establish a point most 'lone-nutters' already concede. Most LNs (and some CTs) put the first shot around Z160.

Hank
 
What are you on about? The autopsy doctors and the photographer said they took views of the interior of the dissected body showing the damage to the right lung, as well as close-up views of the exterior and interior of the small wound in the scalp/skull. Those photographs are not in the collection today.

Let's, in 1967, Humes, Boswell, and Finck went to the National Archives to review the recently deposited photos, and this is their report:

THE HEAD WOUND

Entry

The autopsy report states that a lacerated entry wound measuring 15 by 6
mm. (0.59 by 0.24 inches) is situated in the posterior scalp approximately
2.5 cm. (1 inch) laterally to the right and slightly above the external
occipital protruberance (a bony protruberance at the back of the head).
In non-technical language this indicates that a small wound was found in
the back of the head on the right side. Photographs Nos. 15, 16, 42 and
43 show the location and size of the wound
, and establish that the above
autopsy data were accurate. Due to the fractures of the underlying bone
and the elevation of the scalp by manual lifting (done to permit the wound
to be photographed) the photographs show the wound to be slightly higher
than its actually measured site.
Their conclusion:

SUMMARY

The photographs and x-rays corroborate our visual observations during the
autopsy and conclusively support our medical opinion as set forth in the
summary of our autopsy report.

It was then and is now our opinion that the two missiles which struck the
President causing the neck wound and the head wound were fired from a
point behind and somewhat above the level of the deceased.

Our examination of the photographs and x-rays lasted approximately five
hours, and at its conclusion the photographs and x-rays were returned to
the Archivist of the United States.

Source:http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt

A year later in 1968, Attorney General Ramsey Clark appointed a panel of forensic pathologists to examine the goodies. This is their inventory:

Black and White and Colored Prints and transparencies

Head viewed from above

#5(9JB), 8(7JB), 13(6JB), 16(10JB), 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37

Head viewed from right and above to include part of face, neck,
shoulder and upper chest

#3(14JB), 4(13JB), 11(6JB), 12(5JB), 26, 27, 28, 40, 41

Head and neck viewed from left side
#6(3JB), 15(4JB), 17(2JB), 18(1JB), 29, 30, 31

Head viewed from behind
#7(16JB), 14(15JB), 42, 43

Cranial cavity with brain removed viewed from above and in front
#1(18JB), 2(17JB), 44, 45

Back of body including neck
#9(11JB), 10(12JB), 38, 39

Brain viewed from above
#50, 51, 52

brain viewed from below
#46, 47, 48, 49

The black and white and color negatives corresponding to the
above were present and there were also seven black and white
negatives of the brain without corresponding prints. These were
numbered 19 through 25(JTB) and appeared to represent the same
views as #46 through 52. All of the above were listed in a
memorandum of transfer, located in the National Archives, and
dated Apr. 26, 1965.

X-ray Films

(The films bore the number 21296 and an inscription
indicating that they have been made at the US Naval Hospital,
Bethesda, MD on 11/22/63.)

Skull, A-P view
#1

Skull, left lateral
#2,3

Skull, fragments of
#4, 5, 6

Thoracolumbar region, A-P view
#7, 11

Chests, A-P view
#9

Right hemithorax, shoulder and upper arm, A-P view
#8

Left hemithorax, shoulder and upper arm, A-P view
#10

Pelvis, A-P view
#13

Lower femurs and knees, A-P view
#12

Upper legs, A-P view
#14

Source: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/medical.htm

Let me get this straight, the key photographs are put into the archive, are then accounted for visually by the Autopsy Doctors, and are still there a year later...but somehow they've gone missing... Okay...
 
Should point out that I said the negatives are not in the archives and the inventory shows that they are...so yeah, I blew that one.

I'd be shocked if the Kennedys don't have copies.
 
When you go on these rants

Hilarious!

A dispassionate listing of the evidence against Oswald becomes a 'rant' somehow.

You might be showing your bias with your choice of words, you know.


...you should know that it is not uncommon to theorize that CE399 and the official fragments were originally fired from the rifle in evidence could have been fired in the actual shooting, and you'd still have plenty of evidence to conclude multiple shooters.

I didn't ask for your conjectures or criticisms. Go back and read it again.

I asked for your "one way" this happened.

Spell it out for us.




For one thing, each of the three shell casings themselves have evidence of tampering (perhaps from firing an undercharged round or using a sabot), allegedly those and the one live round were found by police originally in that condition with those markings.

There's no evidence of tampering of any sort. Your conjectures and criticisms are not evidence. I asked for the way this happened. Are you punting yet again?


Unless you wanted to invoke a sabot, I guess that in that situation that would mean the rifle in evidence did fire at least two shots (with at least one of the shell casings being a chamber plug or a plant).

Why didn't it fire all three again? You're not back to arguing a dented shell couldn't be fired from the rifle? We disposed of that silly argument a month or so ago. The shell could have been - and most likely was - dented upon ejection. You even cited a conspiracy theorist who got a dented shell upon ejection after about 60 trials. Don't you remember?

Which way did it happen? You don't know?

Why can't you tell us, and cite the evidence for it, instead of just criticizing the evidence against Oswald by raising bogus issues to distract and prolong the discussion? And you do this repeatedly.

Hank
 

Negative on that. You claimed they lied. You don't get out of establishing that here by posting a couple of links to conspirary theorist arguments I'm not going to bother to read.

If you can't be bothered to post the evidence here, I can't be bothered to rebut it.

Otherwise, you might want to read this and rebut it:
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/contents.htm
https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/report/contents.htm


What are you on about? The autopsy doctors and the photographer said they took views of the interior of the dissected body showing the damage to the right lung, as well as close-up views of the exterior and interior of the small wound in the scalp/skull. Those photographs are not in the collection today.

And you know that how? And you know what they show how?

Have you seen the entire collection so you can attest to what they show and what's missing?


And have you ever wondered why there are no photographs which clearly show the original head wound detailing the damage to the brain?

Same questions as above.


Plus, Saundra Pencer's testimonies have already confirmed that there once existed post-mortem photographs of Kennedy's body once it had been partially reconstructed by the autopsy doctors.

Her recollections from 33 years after the fact hardly *confirm* anything. Nobody's recollections would.


Then you have other stories, an x-ray of a probe going from the back to the throat, a photograph of probes going into the wounds on the body. Who knows.

"Stories" is a good name for this stuff. "Stories", as in "fish stories". You should've seen the photographs that got away. ;)


You should know that Lattimer located the back wound way too high. The photographs and clothing evidence show that the back wound was slightly lower anatomically than the throat wound.

How should I know that? How do YOU know that? Enlighten us.

The HSCA determined the wound would be downward and hit Connally after exiting JFK's throat, did they not?

Lattimer determined the same thing, did he not?

The three autopsists determined the path was downward through JFK, did they not?

Didn't the HSCA determine, from the wound locations, that the sniper's nest was within the area from which the shots that struck JFK could have emanated?

You don't get around all this by claiming Lattimer misplaced the wound and claiming I should know this.


Wecht wrote it off as a minute fragment from a missile that entered the back and exited the throat. You should know that any fragment there couldn't be from that. This fragment needs more investigation.

How should I know that? How do YOU know that? Enlighten us.


For some people, all the evidence in the world isn't enough.

MicahJava, meet MichaJava. MicahJava, MicahJava.


Gary Cornwell of the HSCA that admitted 20 years later in his own book Real Answers that he coerced Humes and that he thought Humes was a lying prick trying to cover his ass for being wrong in the autopsy report.

Okay. That's an assertion by you about something Gary Cornwell supposedly said. Let's do this in order.

Quote EXACTLY (and source, including the specific page number) what Cornwell said.

And then, answer this: What's the evidence for this assertion by Cornwell? Got any? What confirms or corroborates it?


Please state your case based on any sampling of witness evidence for a loud gunshot before Zapruder frame 190.

No. You don't get to shift the burden of proof here. You need to establish your claims. I don't need to prove they are not true.


I think you're confusing witnesses describing large head shot.

Not in the least.

This is just your deflection from the points and evidence I cited that rebut your silly arguments.

For example, you argued the shot that hit the governor might have been silenced. I quoted Nelly Connally, seated beside the Governor, saying she heard the shot that hit the Governor. That established your 'silenced' weapon argument was nonsense. I also pointed out the bullet travels faster than sound, so the Governor not hearing the shot that wounded him was perfectly understandable, as his sensory system might have been a bit overloaded by the time the sound of the bullet arrived.

You also argued that the Governor said there was only a brief moment between the first and second shots. I quoted the Governor saying the entire assassination sequence was brief - and he defined brief as ten to twelve seconds.

I also pointed out you were contradicting an earlier assertion of yours where you claimed the last two shots were bunched, but now you're claiming the first two were bunched.

You also brought up that some witnesses thought the shots came from the knoll, but ignored all the rebuttal arguments I presented previously, including the fact that according to your own arguments, these witnesses (the vast majority of which thought ALL the shots came from the knoll) must be wrong, because you don't argue all the shots came from the knoll, but rather, you argue for multiple shooters in multiple locations.

You can pretend not to understand the rebuttal point, or you can ignore it until well after the cows come home and start filling your house with cow patties. But that won't make the rebuttal point go away.

NONE of this has anything to do with a head shot, and if you don't understand why, I am loss to help you understand.

Your dismissal of my points with this sentence ("I think you're confusing witnesses describing large head shot") shows you're not serious about anything except prolonging the conversation, because you presented no rebuttal argument for any of my points whatsoever.


The witness evidence indicates that the last two out of three loud gunshots were closely bunched together, to the point that many apparently mistook the last two shots as only one shot.

Yet you quoted the Governor in all apparent seriousness as saying the first two were bunched to make another point. Why not try to reconcile your own arguments in your own head before you present them here?

And then try to explain how both your arguments can be true. And then admit if they can't, that you were wrong about one and tell us which one you were wrong about.

Hank
 
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I don't think that's fair. You're taking the words of historical figures and pretending they're saying something that they're clearly not. I think you're pretending you actually think that. An honest person would acknowledge that they are disagreeing with the statements of the autopsy participants.

Projection. On a 20 foot by 60 foot screen.

Because that's precisely what you've been doing since you got here.

Hilarious!

I mean, above, you just called the autopsists LIARS.

Hank
 
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...The book is also the source of a Gawler's funeral home employee that told Manchester that the autopsy doctors contacted Parkland hospital and discovered the throat wound at around midnight.

I wouldn't go sourcing William Manchester's book as evidence for the single-assassin theory.

Yet somehow you are quite happy to cite Manchester as evidence for multiple assassins.

Funny that.
 
And how many decades after the fact did "one of the Gawler's Funeral Home people" say that? I thought you said your arguments could be made from 1960s recollections only. Here you are pulling a 33-year after the event recollection out of your hind parts.

Why can't you make your argument from recollections from the 1960s? Because if you don't have faulty recollections to fall back on, you don't have a case.

Hank

Manchester's book came out in 1967. The quote about the doctors contacting Parkland at midnight came from Joseph Hagan.
 
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Yet somehow you are quite happy to cite Manchester as evidence for multiple assassins.

Funny that.

Can anybody fail to notice the double standard that people apply to evidence to justify a CT?

When somebody says something that supports the CT? No matter how far it outlays from the larger pattern? That is the TRUTH.

If they later discount the possibility, or draw a different conclusion? It is a LIE, for the cover-up.

The CT offers no reason why they decided one or other statement is a lie, is oblivious to the idea that declaring somebody a liar might undermine their argument, or that they should question which, if either statement is a lie, or a mistake, or an idea that went nowhere under scrutiny...

It is a recurring feature in this long discussion, and it is never convincing to see the imbalance of scrutiny.
 
Copied from a previous long comment of mine:

From the 1971 paper in the Journal of Forensic Sciences, Photographic Evidence and the Assassination of President John F. Kennedy by physicist Don Olson and criminalist Ralph Turner:

"The Warren Commission believed that frames 225-230 represented the President's reactions to a shot fired somewhere in the interval of Zapruder frames 210-224, while the President was behind the road sign. However, certain observations in the Zapruder film will be noted here to indicate that the first wounding of the President may not have been blocked from the record by the road sign. The transition in the President's appearance between frames 183 and 230 (described above) in fact seems to begin with certain reactions in the intervals of frames 194-206.



And after watching the video many times reversing and re-playing, I disagree with the HCSA, JFK is wounded in the back during 223-224 while he is behind the sign, JBC is wounded during this interval also. Most of the interval 190-213(about the time JFK disappears behind the sign) is blurry and I minor movements could be misinterpreted by the HSCA. Five members disagreed with those findings for what ever reasons. From the earliest time in Zapruder JFK is waving at the crowd looking left and right. When he emerges from the sign ~224 he is reacting the to back/neck wounds.
First, a general trend in the frames 194-206 may be noted. Beginning as early as frame 194, the President's body seems to undergo a motion forward and to the left. This motion, which can be visually approximated to be on the order of six or seven inches, seems to begin in frame 194 and continues through about frame 200. The President seems to move away from the seat back and tilt to to the left, away from the window ledge."


Any such movements are slight and could have been as a result of shifting in his seat, I observe no noticeable change until he goes behind the sign, but after emerging from the sign there is a definite change in his behavior. It must be stated that a lot of the Zapruder film is of poor quality compared to today with some very blurry(technology camera movement) that precise movements can't be made with high percentage of accuracy.
...

"Study of the frames reveals further information. Recalling the descriptions above, it is clear that between frames 183 and 230, two specific changes occurred in the President's position. First, the President turned his head and shoulders back from the crowd until he was facing forward. Also, the President's right arm moved from a position with the elbow below a chrome strip on the outside of the car, into a position with the arm and elbow well inside the car and raised almost to chin level. These frames and motions have been described in such great detail because both of these specific changes in Kennedy can be observed to occur in the "early Zapruder frames," i.e., those before the President disappears from view behind the road sign. In this context, It happens that frame 204 is very important.



From my perspective the elbow is below or at contact with the car body any comments on the hand could just as easily be described as completing a wave. I don't see any difference in JFK's behavior from the start of Zapruder until he disappears behind the sign. From the poor quality of the film many observations could be made, not just mine.



On the interval the President's body is seen to narrow somewhat to the view, indicating that he not only leans to the Left front, but also is rotated to the left. The rotation of the shoulders begins as early as frame 195. His head comes around at 200-202. By frame 204 the President is facing almost directly forward.

As the President moves and rotates to the left, his right arm is pulled back into the car. While his elbow has been resting outside the car, it comes up noticeably at frame 195. The President's elbow can be seen to cross the chrome strip on the side of the car at frames As President Kennedy disappears from view behind the sign, his right arm seems to he in a particularly unusual position the clearly visible gray of his suit coat indicating that his right arm and elbow have been raised at least to the level of his chin.
"


Have you watched the film?
Here is my archive:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_gm-MoQfe7E
http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisberg%20Subject%20Index%20Files/J%20Disk/Journal%20of%20Forensic%20Science/Item%2001.pdf



From the 9/12/1978 testimony of Calvin McCamy, spokesman for the HSCA photographic evidence panel:

"...There is considerable blurring at this point. The President's arm is up in a waving position. His head is still toward the right. At this point there is considerable blur, and by here, it appears as though his head is beginning to turn quite rapidly to the left. His head is now to the left. That is only one-eighteenth of a second from one frame to the next. He continues to look toward the left. One barely sees his right ear toward the camera. It is quite clear he is here now looking directly at his wife. He and his wife can be seen looking at one another in this sequence. He now goes behind the sign, and only a fraction of a second later we see his hands moving upward. He has a gasping expression. His hands are in a classic position of a person who has been startled. He now begins to raise his arms into what I would call a defensive position. He may be clutching at the throat wound."


Yes I agree with that description, when JFK emerges from behind the sign he is beginning the clutching motion to the throat.
https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=81#relPageId=148&tab=page


From the HSCA photographic evidence panel's final report:

64. (a) By a vote of 12 to 5, the Panel determined that President Kennedy first showed a reaction to some severe external stimulus by Zapruder frame 207 as he is seen going behind a street sign that obstructed Zapruder's view.

...

70. At approximately Zapruder frame 200, Kennedy's movements suddenly freeze; his right hand abruptly stops in the midst of a waving motion and his head moves rapidly from right to his left in the direction of his wife. Based on these movements, it appears that by the time the President goes behind the sign at frame 207 he is evidencing some kind of reaction to a severe external stimulus. By the time he emerges from behind the sign at Zapruder frame 225, the President makes a clutching motion with his hands toward his neck, indicating clearly that he has been shot.

https://www.maryferrell.org/showDoc.html?docId=958#relPageId=22&tab=page


HSCA photographic expert Cecil Kirk's testimony at the 1986 mock trial of Lee Harvey Oswald: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGsD8i3qOgo&t=2m55s

Notice how Bugliosi is using evidence of conspiracy as evidence of whatever the hell he believes in (he doesn't address the z190+ problems in his book Reclaiming History)!!

Not to mention the photograph taken by Dealey Plaza witness Phillip Willis, corresponding to Zapruder frame 206-210, which he always swore was snapped as a startle reaction to hearing the first shot.

Frame 206-210 may have been the first shot or could have been earlier.. It is my opinion that the first shot was 150-160 as you can observe at different times JFK and JBC turning their heads to the left where the shots came from. Then a pause before the next round. There were two groupings of shell casings on the floor of the TSBA one casing by itself, two in close proximity, as if LHO firing position changed. This would be consistent with the travel of the car away from him requiring a change in firing stance. No mystery for me, just understanding aiming/firing a rifle.
 
Manchester's book came out in 1967. The quote about the doctors contacting Parkland at midnight came from Joseph Hagan.

Wow. Out of all my posts above, you found one point to quibble over, and it concerns hearsay from a book. Apologies for the error.

One point!

You mention a Joe Hagan but don't source it.

I found this (link below), which mentions nothing about the autopsists contacting Parkland. It says preparation of the body started at 11pm on 11/22/63 and ended by 4am on 11/23/63.

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md134.pdf

Hagan's interview with the ARRB is from 1996 -- 33 years after the assassination. Surely you can't be referencing that while asserting your claims are from the 1960s doocumentation.

Here's the ARRB summary of his interview: http://www.washingtondecoded.com/files/md182-1.pdf

Especially since his interview includes this admission that his recollection is contradictory in places: Ultimately, his own response as he considered all of these inconsistencies in his recollections of the timing of various events surrounding the transportation of personnel, and the mahogany casket, was to say, “I can’t put it all together.” ...

Moreover, the interview notes the first link above was NOT prepared by Joe Hagan: Chronology of Events of November 22-25, 1963 entitled “Funeral Arrangements for John Fitzgerald Kennedy”: Mr. Hagan did not think that he had prepared this summary of events himself, and said that that John Gawler had probably prepared this document.

Surely you're neither relying on his memorandum for the record in which I can see no reference to a call to Parkland at about midnight, nor his interview 33 years after the assassination where he admits his recollection about the chronology of events is hazy and doesn't make a lot of sense.

Now try rebutting the rest of the points I made in the preceding posts. There are a few dozen posts in total over the past few days that you've mostly brushed aside and ignored.

You won't rebut them because you can't rebut them.

Hank
 
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If you refuse to accept the possibility that the three main autopsy doctors are lying about a few things, then there is also the "accidental misinterpretation" possibility: The small head wound had inward beveling, the large head wound had outward, so they had a place for the EOP shot to go. Let's pretend for a moment that the doctors didn't know full well that Kennedy's throat wound was originally a bullet hole on the night of the autopsy; they didn't have any place for a back entrance wound to go besides speculating that a bullet barely penetrated the back and naturally squeezed it's way out. When they discovered the throat wound, allegedly without having investigated it at all as the possibility of a bullet wound, they had a place for the back shot to exit. Two gunshots, perfectly clean with the three-shot scinareo.

I am quite certain you are not a professional. I am, my word is my bond. To insinuate that professionals (all three) are lying flies in the face of being a professional. You have no evidence of any lying, just wild speculation as per your normal assessments.

"The small head wound had inward beveling"
and lets see from the report that entry hole was 7 by 4 mm.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt


Is this a small hole?

What could cause this small head wound? Could a 7.62 x 52 mm Carcano do it? Yes it could.
 
"The small head wound had inward beveling"
and lets see from the report that entry hole was 7 by 4 mm.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/hbf.txt

What could cause this small head wound? Could a 7.62 x 52 mm Carcano do it? Yes it could.

Oswald's weapon fired 6.5mm x 52mm Carcano bullets.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Ce141.jpg/300px-Ce141.jpg

Some CTs argue a 7.62 Mauser was discovered in the sniper's nest.

I'm sure you don't mean what you wrote.

Hank
 
Wow. Out of all my posts above, you found one point to quibble over, and it concerns hearsay from a book. Apologies for the error.

One point!

You mention a Joe Hagan but don't source it.

I found this (link below), which mentions nothing about the autopsists contacting Parkland. It says preparation of the body started at 11pm on 11/22/63 and ended by 4am on 11/23/63.

https://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/master_med_set/pdf/md134.pdf

Hagan's interview with the ARRB is from 1996 -- 33 years after the assassination. Surely you can't be referencing that while asserting your claims are from the 1960s doocumentation.

Here's the ARRB summary of his interview: http://www.washingtondecoded.com/files/md182-1.pdf

Especially since his interview includes this admission that his recollection is contradictory in places: Ultimately, his own response as he considered all of these inconsistencies in his recollections of the timing of various events surrounding the transportation of personnel, and the mahogany casket, was to say, “I can’t put it all together.” ...

Moreover, the interview notes the first link above was NOT prepared by Joe Hagan: Chronology of Events of November 22-25, 1963 entitled “Funeral Arrangements for John Fitzgerald Kennedy”: Mr. Hagan did not think that he had prepared this summary of events himself, and said that that John Gawler had probably prepared this document.

Surely you're neither relying on his memorandum for the record in which I can see no reference to a call to Parkland at about midnight, nor his interview 33 years after the assassination where he admits his recollection about the chronology of events is hazy and doesn't make a lot of sense.

Now try rebutting the rest of the points I made in the preceding posts. There are a few dozen posts in total over the past few days that you've mostly brushed aside and ignored.

You won't rebut them because you can't rebut them.

Hank

sigh...

Joe Gawler and Joe Hagan, his chief assistant, supervised the loading of the coffin in a hearse, or, as Hagan preferred to call it, a “funeral coach.” The firm’s young cosmetician accompanied them to Bethesda. The two caskets, Oneal’s and Gawler’s, lay side by side for a while in the morgue anteroom; then Oneal’s was removed for storage and the undertakers, Irishmen, and George Thomas were admitted to the main room. The autopsy team had finished its work, a grueling, three-hour task, interrupted by the arrival of a fragment of skull which had been retrieved on Elm Street and flown east by federal agents. The nature of the two wounds and the presence of metal fragments in the President’s head had been verified; the metal from Oswald’s bullet was turned over to the FBI. Bethesda’s physicians anticipated that their findings would later be subjected to the most searching scrutiny. They had heard reports of Mac Perry’s medical briefing for the press, and to their dismay they had discovered that all evidence of what was being called an entrance wound in the throat had been removed by Perry’s tracheostomy. Unlike the physicians at Parkland, they had turned the President over and seen the smaller hole in the back of his neck. They were positive that Perry had seen an exit wound. The deleterious effects of confusion were already evident. Commander James J. Humes, Bethesda’s chief of pathology, telephoned Perry in Dallas shortly after midnight, and clinical photographs were taken to satisfy all the Texas doctors who had been in Trauma Room No. 1.

-The Death of a President by William Manchester, 1967

See, since Sibert and O'Neil left around 11:30 PM because they assumed the autopsy was finishing up once the funeral home people, it would make sense if the autopsy doctors only then telephoned Dr. Perry and learned of the throat wound.
 
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