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Gratitude, Compulsion, Idiocy or Nobility?

Your abóve language is quite clear to me but since I àm not familier to delícacies of this religion I am unable to comment, whether those were supernatural míracles or some ununderstood models of nature. Many such miracles are also indicated in many religións here as if miracles are óne basis of religion. Science may justify it. Thanks and sorry.
You are, of course, free to believe that miracles are simply complex and difficult to explain natural events that are misinterpreted, in which case welcome to the very large group of people who reject the miraculous basis of miracle-based religions. The point, and it is a point and it will remain a point and it is an important point that cannot be ignored, is that people who believe in miracles DO NOT accept that explanation. THE VERY DEFINITION OF A MIRACLE forbids a rational and scientific explanation of it. Ever. A miracle must be truly supernatural and not just based on incomplete understanding, or it's not a miracle.
 
Yes, one of the big problems with your argument is that you are so unfamiliar with world religion that it makes it very comical for you to speak of "true" or "universal" religion -- a thing that simply does not exist once your concept of religion widens to include anything but your own religion. It's further comical to watch you misunderstand the place of ascetic Hinduism in the context of world religion. It is possible you are so steeped in your religion that you cannot understand how reality could possibly differ from it, whether discussing the natural world or the world's religions.

There should be a basic and universal understanding or sense of everything. Simply you may need to translate others into that understanding. Yes you will need to first understand the question side to answer suitably. Here, I tend to understand basic logic or science of any spiritual aspect easily. Ican also do it for other(bit naturally gifted) but first I need to understand those carefully.



In terms of the Catholic doctrines referred to, the people who believe in them specifically believe that they do not conform to a natural model and that they are inherently supernatural. They cite them as evidence -- both past and ongoing -- of the existence of their deity. The line of reasoning specifically goes that because such occurrences could not have a natural origin, they must have a supernatural origin and that God is the author of them. Their rhetoric requires the events to be unnatural. We know you have a strong motivation to try to bring all things religious under the umbrella of nature, but in this case the religion itself disputes your interpretation of it.

Yes, I felt, people are talking about sun-natural not super-natural because this being skeptical forum. I was trying to bring then from so felt as sub-natural to natural levels. To justify supernaturality, miracles etc. we may need to wait till science is become A&F or we become omniscient.
 
Because you made the mistake of assuming all religious are like yours in all respects. You want to establish the notion of a "true" or "universal" religion so that you can argue it both derives from nature and also isn't tied up in some sectarian strife. This then would become a moral authority on whose basis you could dictate policy. You challenged your critics to name practices from any religion, and you would explain how they relate to nature. But in your ignorance you were unaware of just how profoundly some other religions in the world differ from Hinduism. You were unaware that some religions are predicated explicitly upon the supernatural.

I feel, there is an universal or absolute or prime basis of everything or being and by making base of that, one can know all grosses or variations. That would somehow be taken as omniscience. Like for example, you can feed a tress just be giving water to roots instead of spraying it on whole tress(still not fully watered inspite much more water is spoiled). Same only, I was trying to make base.

Christianity, especially Catholicism, is based heavily on the notion that events that seem to defy nature occur as a matter of fact. It accepts that, aside from supernatural intervention, the natural world behaves according to inviolable laws. They imagine that a supernatural force exists, and they cite apparent examples of these physical laws being violated as proof of that supernatural force. The purported resurrection of Jesus is the central miracle in the faith. The purported supernatural force that causes miracles such as resurrection is personified into a supernatural deity whose will is then said to supersede the laws of nature. By this means are the faithful held in subjugation by those who purport to interpret the will of that deity.
Can't comment on it. To really understand it, we may need to wait till science become A&F or we become omniscient. Such aspects are also present in many religions, here except that one & few others. Energy modified in matter and matter mediate energy both are facts in science. If we take one as nature other as supernatural entity, both can be justified in this sense but energy will be prime source i.e nature. In Hinduism, Lord Shiva & Mother Parvati--Shiv-Shakti is indicated as supernatural god & nature. Trinity basic gods along with three basic goddesses(not prime) are also indicated. It may suggest, sipritual existence of male and female god representing supernatural and nature or Matter & energy. If this can hold sense then probably matter may be considered as gross and supernatural.

Jainism, in contrast, begins with a set of what the west would call demigods, who are said to have dispensed a universal ethical wisdom built around exaggerated obligations of non-violence. In other words, it's a bunch of made-up philosophy attributed to ancient beings believed to be, in some sense, divine. So important is non-violence, in this philosophy, that humans must live an ascetic lifestyle in order to minimize the "violence" imposed on their environment. It is worship of nature, not worship derived from nature. In order to make nature worthy of such sacrifice, it must be ennobled -- deified, for lack of a better word. And it is this inferred ennoblement of nature that sends your religion off the rails. Nature is simply not the noble thing you pretend it is.

Jainism is not based on supernatural or miracle nor on entity but based on property(ref previous links). It appear to be secondary to basic religion and adopted one part of nature related to peace, non-voilence, truth, non sinful acts and healthful practices. Why it adopted this part? Because its introducers didn't felt that they were prime, supernatural and like Supreme court.

Yes, you are correct in saying that some religions defy nature and reach for the supernatural while others simply look to nature as the object of worship. But where your religion and Catholicism can be considered similar is in that they both simply make up a desired belief and then selectively look to nature to support it. That each tries to work nature into its system of belief doesn't substantiate than any one of them has simply arisen from nature.

There can be different levels and types/parts of nature, all religions can adopt differently depending of introducer's understandings, specific needs, specific time & environment ets. But it is bit difficult to achieve A&F status like SUN, which shall never attract odds. At most initial levels we all are on one platform but different on some gross or local level. Universal, Solar, global, live beings, animals, humans( one at basic levels), Continental, sub-continental, national, international, state, city, area, society, home, communal etc. (some different at gross/local levels). Mostly,odds are relevant to grosses at increasing rate not on basic levels.

Sorry become more complex.
 
I already covered this. If all you propose to do is spin a web of speculation and tenuous connections between some claimed religious doctrine and some aspect of nature, then that proves nothing. You want to say that "true" religion (which, as I explained, seems to be no different in your mind from ascetic Hinduism) imposes duties and regulations that derive from nature. That requires a high standard of proof to show the actual derivation, not just some ad hoc line of reasoning noting superficial similarities.

All things and beings are just modified form of probably one unified force(?) or four fundamental forces & elementary particles. This can suggest some universality at basic level.

But more importantly you need to realize that the believers in religious miracles are not looking for a scientific explanation. The entire basis of their faith is that such occurrences as they receive as miracles cannot be explained scientifically and occur in blatant defiance of science. When confronted with the notion of transubstantiation, an important doctrine of Catholic Christianity, you tried to suggest ways such as metabolism in which bread could be turned into human flesh. You were utterly unaware of the actual fundamentals of the doctrine: that the priest utters certain words and performs certain actions, and that the bread he's holding literally becomes -- instantly and magically -- the flesh of a long-dead guru in explicit and triumphant defiance of any scientific explanation, and that this happens before consumption. The people who eat this allegedly transformed substance believe they are literally eating the flesh of Jesus of Nazareth. They don't want you to try to say it must "somehow" be natural. They want it to be unnatural. They want it to be a miracle. They know it tastes and feels like bread. They know that if they were to give it to someone to examine, it would be indistinguishable from bread. They want to believe in magic that makes all these appearances happen, yet it still is the literal body of their guru.

Oh, previously misunderstood, sorry. Whether it is observed similarly by science or independent people? Can't say, but if it can be related to fermentation which can become a process of generation and killing of many small beings?

Your recent attempts to revise your argument suggest you may realize that not all religions purport to be of nature, and indeed that not all religious practice can be shown to derive from nature or to be justified by it. There is simply far more religious practice than you were previously aware of. And you might be tempted to agree with us that some of the claims made, such as transubstantiation, are patently absurd and almost certain not to be true. We all know how the swami levitation trick is done, for example, yet some people are still willing to believe it because they have a need to believe nature can be defied.

If you accept that at least some religions just make stuff up, then you have to justify why your religion shouldn't be included in that category. In ancient times, people ravaged by violence -- either from other tribes of humans or from wild animals -- would naturally seek to alleviate that situation by establishing an ideal of non-violence. In ancient times, people ravaged by famine would naturally seek an ethic that minimized scarce resources. For many thousands of years religion has been the customary method of instilling whatever ethos seems to be prudent. And, incidentally, for just that long it has also been a tool by which the weak-minded are exploited by the unscrupulous, but that's perhaps a different topic.



But in order to make an ethos stick, you have to give it some authority beyond that of just the guy who first proposed it, even if that means just making stuff up. In western religions this authority comes from supposing the existence of a god not bound by natural law, but rather having the power to reward or punish according to his whim. Your religious has simply deified nature; it supposes that nature is an object worthy of worship and that this then gives rise to certain obligations. Those obligations just happen to coincide with what some people can use to their advantage. Ascetic Hinduism doesn't have a personal god, but all the roles filled by gods in other religious are fulfilled in Jainism by this rosy, platonic caricature of nature that you've created and essentially worship. In western religion, the deity is often the perfection or superlative of some set of desirable qualities. In your religion, that superlative ideal is simply attributed to nature. Your idealistic cartoon of nature is your god in the same way Jehovah is the god of the Abrahamic religions, and no more true.

Then you propose to equivocate between the Nature-God you've created in your religion and the observable natural world. Only the natural world doesn't match your fantasy, and that's where you get stuck. And that puts you in the category of religions that just make stuff up. Your ennoblement of nature is as unscientific and nonfactual as transubstantiation.

ike in my Mango tree example, if someone misguide in vested interests or due to dim vision, it can not be made a basis of health discussions. But still there can be many facts which may now look odd to us, but may become facts on better understandings. my Matter vs Energy example is very good(not poising) in understanding so said supernatural vs natural link. Many previous miracles become science now.
 
You are, of course, free to believe that miracles are simply complex and difficult to explain natural events that are misinterpreted, in which case welcome to the very large group of people who reject the miraculous basis of miracle-based religions. The point, and it is a point and it will remain a point and it is an important point that cannot be ignored, is that people who believe in miracles DO NOT accept that explanation. THE VERY DEFINITION OF A MIRACLE forbids a rational and scientific explanation of it. Ever. A miracle must be truly supernatural and not just based on incomplete understanding, or it's not a miracle.

Many miracles(looking so) can also happen is nature. Yesterday miracle or supernatural may become science or natural tomorrow esp if science can achieve A&F status. Btw, whether science or independent people could endorse these supernaturals or miracles? Whether it was encouraged and allowed to understand? Here, we do that.
 
How do you know that the parts of religions you "collect" are true?

By omniscience, omnipotence along with omnipresence. Somewhat by evolved, inherited and acquires stimulated knowledge.;) Since science is not yet A&F, we may need to use some other mean for its yet non A&F part.
 
Many miracles(looking so) can also happen is nature. Yesterday miracle or supernatural may become science or natural tomorrow esp if science can achieve A&F status. Btw, whether science or independent people could endorse these supernaturals or miracles? Whether it was encouraged and allowed to understand? Here, we do that.

Please pay attention to the posts you're responding to. This post does not address anything Bruto said.
 
The Old testament of the hebrai bible says

1. No mixing of fibers, ie no wool or cotton blends, etc...
2. Any furniture that a woman has sat on during her menses must be burned
3. No labor on the sabbath day

Mixing Heat and cool giving fibers can give odd outcomes to body. This angle remain in my mind since long back, as I experianced odd on wearing mixed fiber cloths.

Probably, previously, we made lot of basis about possible infection. Protection was not there. Potential Hate by other members towards woman may be the resons.

May this day have some natural/radiation/conmic rays/astrological odd or like Sunday holiday.
 
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There should be a basic and universal understanding or sense of everything. Simply you may need to translate others into that understanding. Yes you will need to first understand the question side to answer suitably. Here, I tend to understand basic logic or science of any spiritual aspect easily. Ican also do it for other(bit naturally gifted) but first I need to understand those carefully.


Oh deary me. Naturally gifted? In 14 years you appear to have understood nothing at all, not matter the manner of number of times something has been explained. That's special.



Yes, I felt, people are talking about sun-natural not super-natural because this being skeptical forum. I was trying to bring then from so felt as sub-natural to natural levels. To justify supernaturality, miracles etc. we may need to wait till science is become A&F or we become omniscient.

I rest my case.
 
How do you know that the parts of religions you "collect" are true?

By omniscience, omnipotence along with omnipresence.


You possess none of those attributes, so you can't use those.

Somewhat by evolved, inherited and acquires stimulated knowledge.;)


How do you acquire this "knowledge"? How do you know whether it is true?

Since science is not yet A&F, we may need to use some other mean for its yet non A&F part.


Why? What "other means"?

And how do you tell whether particular religious beliefs are true?
 
Science does not believe in miracles. Miracles are not part of the natural world. People who believe in miracles assiduously maintain that the essence of the miraculous is that they defy scientific explanation.

You really don't know much about religion, do you?

Why Miracles can't be defined as couldn't yet be known in science? Science is not yet A&F so obviously, we can not make its base in A&F. We can just stamp those miracles as "yet unknown in science". You can note many such things even in science and in application eg in medical science.

I know it by different POV. It is difficult for me to accept yet non-A&F with A&F.
 
God in Jainism
n Jainism, godliness is said to be the inherent quality of every soul. This quality, however, is subdued by the soul's association with karmic matter. All souls who have achieved the natural state of infinite bliss, infinite knowledge (kevala jnana), infinite power and infinite perception are regarded as 'God in Jainism'. Jainism rejects the idea of a creator deity responsible for the manifestation, creation, or maintenance of this universe. According to Jain doctrine, the universe and its constituents (soul, matter, space, time, and principles of motion) have always existed. All the constituents and actions are governed by universal natural laws and perfect soul, an immaterial entity cannot create or affect a material entity like the universe
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_in_Jainism

Soul substance[edit]
Jains regard soul as one of the six fundamental and eternal substances (dravyas) which forms the universe. The two states of soul substance are mentioned in the Jain texts. These are — Svābhva (pure or natural) and Vibhāva (impure or unnatural state). Souls in transmigration are in impure state and liberated ones are said to be in natural or pure state.[5]
Jain philosophy is the oldest Indian philosophy that completely separates matter from the soul.[1] According to The Theosophist, "some religionists hold that Atman (Spirit) and Paramatman (God) are identical, while others assert that they are distinct ; but a Jain will say that Atman and Paramatman are identical as well as distinct."[6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jīva_(Jainism)

Does above not indicate relation between nature & religion?
 

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