Proof of Immortality, VI

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- Once again, I wasn't careful enough about my wording...

Once again, you pretend that your argument is sound and that you're just failing to put it across correctly, when in fact we all understand your argument and its fatal flaws comprehensively.

- My claim so far is that the prior probability that our selves are immortal -- in that sense -- is at least .01 (which we can argue about later). Does that resolve this objection?

Pulling numbers out of your nether orifice then insisting that people accept them for the time being, when in fact those numbers are central to the viability of your line of argument, doesn't resolve any objection, any more than it has done at any previous point in the last five years.

Dave
 
caveman,

- Once again, I wasn't careful enough about my wording...
- One of the ways for the self to be "immortal" is for it to exist even when a body carrying the self does not. In that case, there would need to be at least two states of existence for us selves.

That's irrelevant. If you're immortal, you still need your current body, making the odds of your existence just as unlikely as if you were mortal regardless of what formulae you use.

My claim so far is that

STOP IT.
 
Once again, I wasn't careful enough about my wording...

Once again, trying lawyer your way out doesn't fix the fundamental problems with your arguments.

One of the ways for the self to be "immortal" is for it to exist even when a body carrying the self does not.

That's the only way for you to be immortal. You've already conceded that the natural world, i.e., the materialist hypothesis, does not allow for immortality. Hence you need to prove the existence of something immaterial before you can argue that one of the properties of this immaterial self is that its temporal extent is separate from that of the physical body that incarnates it. That immaterial self is called the soul, although you assiduously prefer to obfuscate the concept in order to try to make it sound more sciency.

You need to prove the existence of a soul, and then go on to prove this soul is immortal. You know you cannot do this. We know you know you cannot do this. You have tried to do it by means of a poorly-formulated statistical argument that hides a whole raft of assumptions. You claim your model makes it statistically unlikely that any person exists currently unless he has a soul. The many problems with this model have been brought to your attention and roundly ignored by you.

In that case, there would need to be at least two states of existence for us selves.

That would have to follow from the premises you need to prove. Or rather, your desired hypothesis mandates that the soul would need to have a different lifespan than the body, hence there would need to exist a mechanism for that to occur. Since the act of incarnation is the event in your model, you would have to contemplate the possibility a soul has both an incarnated and non-incarnated form. This is not earth-shattering. It is, in fact, rather mundane Christian theology. Proving the existence of such a mechanism as Christian theology of the soul describes has been shown to be beyond your capability. Indeed it was beyond the capability of all the great philosophers of antiquity.

My claim so far is that the prior probability that our selves are immortal -- in that sense -- is at least .01 (which we can argue about later).

No, let's argue about it now, since this is one of your fundamental errors. All your attempts in this forum to construct a model for statistical inference involve you simply inventing all the numbers that go into it. You do not understand the concept of degrees of freedom in such models, and from my experience you are entirely uninterested in learning. The 0.01 figure is merely one of many such made-up numbers.

Does that resolve this objection?

The objection is the same as it has been for five years. You are profoundly ignorant when it comes to statistical reasoning, and you are not interested in learning how your model fails, but you have convinced yourself you're some sort of unsung genius and are now asking people to contribute to that fantasy. The objection is, and has always been, to your construction of the alleged spaces among which your inferences and observations are expected to take place.
 
caveman,

- Once again, I wasn't careful enough about my wording...
- One of the ways for the self to be "immortal" is for it to exist even when a body carrying the self does not. In that case, there would need to be at least two states of existence for us selves. My claim so far is that the prior probability that our selves are immortal -- in that sense -- is at least .01 (which we can argue about later). Does that resolve this objection?

None of which in any way supports the claim that you are more likely to exist (to have been born) if you are immortal than if you are mortal. So I'm concluding that you failed to support your claim, and this is then the end of our debate. Unsurprisingly it didn't last much longer than the previous time.
 
How do you imagine your word choice fixing an argument that is fundamentally broken? Is there some way of saying 1+2=7 that would make it correct?

Sure. 1+2+4=7

The 1 and the 2 and the 7 are still there. They have simply been joined by a 4.

On a more jocular level, why is 6 afraid of 7?

Because 7 8 9
 
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caveman,

- Once again, I wasn't careful enough about my wording...
- One of the ways for the self to be "immortal" is for it to exist even when a body carrying the self does not. In that case, there would need to be at least two states of existence for us selves. My claim so far is that the prior probability that our selves are immortal -- in that sense -- is at least .01 (which we can argue about later). Does that resolve this objection?

The eternal-immortal-self-irrespective-of-body solution barely scratches the surface of the possibilities. And as far as I can tell, doesn't really make your uniqueness any less unlikely to exist.

What if a whole other "self" can be "you"?

That's what apparently happened after this body was born and became conscious. A "self" that didn't even exist before, incrementally became "me". That is my assessment of what happened, since I have no indication that this particular "self" existed before this brain existed.

But I can only speak for myself.
 
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You've already conceded that the natural world, i.e., the materialist hypothesis, does not allow for immortality.

Of course it allows for it. Heck, even under materialism it's pretty damn hard not to derive immortality. If you're just going to promote your personal philosophy at every turn then at least learn to reason with it.

Define a SAS as a self-aware structure, ie a physical system (for example, but not limited to, the human brain) which is self-aware. Define an OM as an observer-moment, ie a SAS at a specific moment in time. Define a self as a sequence of OM's in time, where each subsequent OM is the continuation of the previous OM according to some notion of "personal identity". Then the statement "selves are immortal" is:

For every OM x at time t there exists an OM y at time t' > t such that x and y belong to the same self.[*]

Even due to nothing but thermal/quantum fluctuations the probability of such an OM y to appear is greater than zero. And no matter how unlikely an event is, as long as its probability is greater than zero, then given enough time the probability for its occurrence is not zero but one.

The only way out here is to assert that the universe is very small and will end very soon. And even then you can't use the more mainstream notion of the universe ending soon, ie the Big Crunch, because under that model, due to time dilation effects, timelike curves have an infinite proper time until the collapse.

* ETA: of course discount sequences of points in time which don't grow arbitrarily large
 
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Proving the existence of such a mechanism as Christian theology of the soul describes has been shown to be beyond your capability. Indeed it was beyond the capability of all the great philosophers of antiquity.

That's something that a LOT of believers fail to grasp: people a lot smarter than any of us here have failed to demonstrate, logically or empirically, the existence or mechanisms of souls for THOUSANDS of years. Being convinced that you can do that now is an expression of hubris, nothing more.
 
Of course it allows for it. Heck, even under materialism it's pretty damn hard not to derive immortality. If you're just going to promote your personal philosophy at every turn then at least learn to reason with it.

Ok name one thing that is immortal/eternal, even hypothetically.

Hell, even the universe is probably going to pop at some point.
 
He's going to pull the "Matter and energy can't be destroyed" card as if that in anyway proves immortality.
 
Well, first of all, they can... and second, it's all for naught if the cosmos ceases to exist, which sure looks like a likely possibility right now.
 
The only way out here is to assert that the universe is very small and will end very soon.

Somewhat overplayed there. In a finite universe, infinitesimal probabilities will not occur if sufficiently small. The only requirement is that the number of events in the universe is small compared to the reciprocal of the probability of an immortal self-aware system coming into existence.

I note also that you've defined the concept of immortality so broadly that there's no reason to suppose it might be applicable to human consciousness, which means that what you're setting out to prove is fundamentally different to what Jabba is setting out to prove.

Dave
 
Somewhat overplayed there. In a finite universe, infinitesimal probabilities will not occur if sufficiently small.

They do if you wait long enough. Hence why I said that the only way out is to assert that the universe is very small and will end very soon.

The only requirement is that the number of events in the universe is small compared to the reciprocal of the probability of an immortal self-aware system coming into existence.

I note also that you've defined the concept of immortality so broadly that there's no reason to suppose it might be applicable to human consciousness

I think you misunderstood what I said. I'm not talking about an immortal self-aware system coming into existence, I'm not talking about a single physical system.

Consider the current state of your brain, let's call it S. Now consider a physical system with state S' such that S' is a continuation of S in the sense that S' is an observer-moment which, according to a notion of personal identity, is the continuation of S. S' doesn't have to be a state of the same physical system as S. S' might, for example, be some physical system in the Andromeda galaxy which momentarily fluctuates into just the right state so as to be a continuation of S. The term "continuation" here doesn't mean "belongs to the same physical system" but "belongs to the same personal identity".

Given materialism, where the state of a physical system fully determines consciousness, and given that physical systems fluctuate over their possible states, it's very hard not to derive immortality.
 
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They do if you wait long enough.

Finite in all four dimensions. If you wait long enough you'll simply run out of universe.

Consider the current state of your brain, let's call it S. Now consider a physical system with state S' such that S' is a continuation of S in the sense that S' is an observer-moment which, according to a notion of personal identity, is the continuation of S. S' doesn't have to be a state of the same physical system as S. S' might, for example, be some physical system in the Andromeda galaxy which momentarily fluctuates into just the right state so as to be a continuation of S.

You've established continuity between two systems at best. That isn't a proof that an OM exists at all time t'>t belonging to the same self. For actual immortality, you require an infinity of such continuity events, which takes your probability all the way to zero. At best, then, in an infinite universe, the probability of immortality is indeterminate.

Dave
 
Finite in all four dimensions. If you wait long enough you'll simply run out of universe.

Well duh, but that's hardly a counter-argument given that I've explicitly said so, that you have to assert the universe to be very small and end very soon to get out of the argument.

You've established continuity between two systems at best. That isn't a proof that an OM exists at all time t'>t belonging to the same self.

Sure it is, by induction. If for every OM at time t there is an OM at time t' > t then there does not exist a last OM.

For actual immortality, you require an infinity of such continuity events, which takes your probability all the way to zero.

You've heard of a proof by induction right?
 
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Well duh, but that's hardly a counter-argument given that I've explicitly said so, that you have to assert the universe to be very small and end very soon to get out of the argument.

How could you tell whether the universe currently is large enough for your hypothetical? Maybe's it's too small and short-lived.

Besides, everything ends, including protons and black holes. So although you might be mathematically correct in some specific context, how does it apply to real life?
 
That isn't a proof that an OM exists at all time t'>t belonging to the same self.

Possible misunderstanding: it's not required for it to exist at all times. There may very well be a billion years between such continuity events. All that's required is that there is at least one point in time t' > t where such a subsequent OM exists even momentarily.
 
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