A Humbling Journey: Theism to Atheism...

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

If a person tells you that "Satan planted fossils to deliberately deceive us", I'm just not expecting any sort of rational explanation for that claim.

You didn't say that you were looking for rational explanations, you said that you were seeking to understand why people thought such things.

And you've now narrowed the criterion from all Christians to those few who believe a very specific, very limited set of beliefs.

If you were me, what sort of question would you ask that person???

It would depend on what I was trying to get out of the situation. You say that you're trying to understand why such people think the way they do, so perhaps "why do you think that?" would be a good place to start?

 

[abaddon]

Hopefully you don't think my exchange with him there was a grilling.

No. I simply make the point that those on such journey may not be a cynical as you or I, and may not be as robust as you are I. The god-botherers are subtle as we well know, or sometimes bonkers as departed members well know.

It is easy to show an aggressive face to those emerging. Probably not a good idea. I know I have to hold back.

 

[Autolite]

You didn't say that you were looking for rational explanations, you said that you were seeking to understand why people thought such things.

Indeed. I should have been more specific. I am in fact looking for explanations that are rational. Explanations that the average person would think were somewhat logical.

I'm really not interested in listening to folks who believe in something because their dog told them that it was true...

 

[Autolite]

You are getting quite the grilling here, and I am unsure why that is. I know plenty who have taken a long time to reach rational atheism.

Hopefully you don't think my exchange with him there was a grilling.

The replies I'm getting on this thread give me a warm fuzzy feeling. I was on another forum discussing UFOs and ETs. I tried to explain that it was all just nonsense. The replies I was getting on that thread gave me a brain hemorrhage...

 

[Thor 2]

Why do you think it'd be a problem if too many of them were in government?

I'm of the opinion that people with religious convictions can be a problem in positions of power. I think the reasons for this are obvious but will spell it out non the less.

- If you think God is in control then you aren't going to worry about global warming.

- If you think God hates fags you won't worry about gay rights.

- If you think there is a soul attached to the single cell at conception you are going to stop women having control over their own bodies.

- If you think there is something special about cows ........

 

[Thor 2]

And yet we're seeing the opposite happening in Canada. There was a recent dust-up in Ontario Canada where one of the local public school boards (Peel County) was fighting to preserve Islamic prayer service in their schools...

https://www.mississauga.com/news-st...-reaches-boiling-point-at-peel-board-meeting/

I agree with you 100%. There is no place for prayer meetings, of any religion flavour, in public schools.

The problem often is the Christians want to maintain the Christian prayers but ban any other kind. This is discrimination but of course they can't see that, because they are so damn sure they have the right god.

 

[Autolite]

I am glad that you have arrived, and I will happily discuss and debate whatever doubts may linger, because I have been that soldier long ago.

I consider myself to be a full-on-hard-right-full-stop Atheist. My replies reference an afterlife were purely FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY!

I am most certain that there actually is no afterlife or reincarnation of any sort...

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I am in fact looking for explanations that are rational.

Rational explanations for why people believe such things? Or rational explanations for why there is a God? Those are two different things, and it looks like you're conflating the two.

 

[Autolite]

Rational explanations for why people believe such things? Or rational explanations for why there is a God? Those are two different things, and it looks like you're conflating the two.

I'm looking for rational explanations for the latter. I've got an old copy of the DSM that should explain the former.

But consider also though that we are in a bit of a grey area here. If I understand correctly, the medical definition of a delusion is an "unsubstantiated, irrational belief that is NOT shared within one's community".

So by that definition, if I lived on a remote, isolated island somewhere and I believed that the Tooth Fairy was real, I would technically not be considered delusional if everyone else (or nearly everyone else) on that island shared that same belief.

This is how the medical community gives religion a pass...

 

[The Big Dog]

I'm looking for rational explanations for the latter. I've got an old copy of the DSM that should explain the former...

 

[Peregrinus]

This is how the medical community gives religion a pass...

Possibly because (aside from the placebo effect) the medical community regards religion in general as a null set?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I'm looking for rational explanations for the latter.

As you seem to have already decided that there are none, I question whether you're doing that at all. The rest of your post does give an indication of why you feel talking to people about their beliefs is less worthwhile than watching videos of atheists talking about how clever atheists are, or pointing and laughing at those who believe.

 

[calebprime]

For the third memorable time, I am in complete agreement with The Big Dog.

And even the smaller dog's persistence here is apt. The smaller dog has detected the scent of insincerity and will grab hold and worry the source until it is eviscerated.

 

[Dancing David]

I'm looking for rational explanations for the latter. I've got an old copy of the DSM that should explain the former.

Then you misunderstand the DSM completely, most people hold beliefs of many natures that are irrational, based upon no evidence or that many disagree with, and most of them do not qualify for an Axis I or Axis II.

The belief in the existence of god or gods is not uncommon among many healthy people who do not qualify for Axis I or Axis II.

(Former mental health worker , 15 years and atheist pagan buddhist)

 

[Belz...]

I'm of the opinion that people with religious convictions can be a problem in positions of power. I think the reasons for this are obvious but will spell it out non the less.

- If you think God is in control then you aren't going to worry about global warming.

- If you think God hates fags you won't worry about gay rights.

- If you think there is a soul attached to the single cell at conception you are going to stop women having control over their own bodies.

- If you think there is something special about cows ........

I don't disagree with any of that, but that's the "risk" of freedom: it allows people of all types into the country (if they're not already there) and it risks putting nonsense into government. But the alternative sounds worse.

 

[abaddon]

I consider myself to be a full-on-hard-right-full-stop Atheist. My replies reference an afterlife were purely FOR ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY!

I am most certain that there actually is no afterlife or reincarnation of any sort...

Make no mistake, at one point, I was a hard ass almost evangelical atheist.

Then I got older.

It might well be that I am utterly wrong to be an atheist and there really is a god. So far, none has been proven to exist, and those proposed to exist to date are unworthy of worship in any shape or form.

 

[Autolite]

As you seem to have already decided that there are none, I question whether you're doing that at all. The rest of your post does give an indication of why you feel talking to people about their beliefs is less worthwhile than watching videos of atheists talking about how clever atheists are, or pointing and laughing at those who believe.

As tempting as it might be to mock Theism it is (for me) more unsettling than it is humorous. It bothers me that we still have Theism in our world. I had started an earlier thread on this issue...

 

[Autolite]

Then you misunderstand the DSM completely, most people hold beliefs of many natures that are irrational, based upon no evidence or that many disagree with, and most of them do not qualify for an Axis I or Axis II.

The belief in the existence of god or gods is not uncommon among many healthy people who do not qualify for Axis I or Axis II.

(Former mental health worker , 15 years and atheist pagan buddhist)

The point I was making is that (if the quoted medical definition was correct) the technical difference between being mentally healthy and delusional seems to depend on whether or not the "irrational, unsubstantiated belief" is commonly shared or not.

I don't think that I'm going too far out on a limb here to suggest that that is at the very least somewhat interesting...

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

As tempting as it might be to mock Theism it is (for me) more unsettling than it is humorous. It bothers me that we still have Theism in our world. I had started an earlier thread on this issue...

You said you found Religulous funny.

 

[acbytesla]

As tempting as it might be to mock Theism it is (for me) more unsettling than it is humorous. It bothers me that we still have Theism in our world. I had started an earlier thread on this issue...

I too wish to see the end of theism and ALL superstitions. I alsi wish that Trump wasn't elected and that I was a Rockefeller heir. Cultures take time to change. And it isn't a steady change.

Patience my friend. Check out this Louis CK video. Sort of talks a bit about how we expect so much these days. Funny as well.

https://youtu.be/dgEvjW1Pq4I