Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts

[Meadmaker]

I'm guessing the Girl Scouts will hold out for now (i.e., not allow boys to join). And there won't be much pressure against them, because few boys will want to become Girl Scouts, for obvious reasons.

The problem as I see it is that the scouting years tend to bleed into the puberty years. So now you've got a whole bunch of roughly 10-to-13-year-olds of mixed gender camping out in the woods together. You're going to need a whole lot more adult supervision to make that work.

it's much worse than that. A lot of boys drop out when high school starts, but the program goes through age 17. My kid dropped out at 14, but a lot of the kids in his troop got their Eagle Scouts when they were seniors in high school. So those boy-girl issues are going to be pretty significant.

But, guess what, they already are. Boy Scout trips just won't be a refuge from it. Meanwhile, Venture Scouts are co-ed. That program goes 14-20, and emphasizes longer, more physically demanding, trips. They do fine. And yes, I'm sure that some of those kids do very fine indeed in those co-ed trips and......such is life. This is the modern world.

My guess is that making scouts co-ed will result in a lot more high schoolers sticking with the program.

 

[Babbylonian]

it's much worse than that. A lot of boys drop out when high school starts, but the program goes through age 17. My kid dropped out at 14, but a lot of the kids in his troop got their Eagle Scouts when they were seniors in high school. So those boy-girl issues are going to be pretty significant.

But, guess what, they already are. Boy Scout trips just won't be a refuge from it. Meanwhile, Venture Scouts are co-ed. That program goes 14-20, and emphasizes longer, more physically demanding, trips. They do fine. And yes, I'm sure that some of those kids do very fine indeed in those co-ed trips and......such is life. This is the modern world.

My guess is that making scouts co-ed will result in a lot more high schoolers sticking with the program.

Great points. Beyond that, I would also note that 14-year-old scouts on camping trips are often (usually?) supervised a lot closer than they are during the rest of their lives. They wouldn't be any more likely to sneak off and have sexy fun than they would when they tell their parents they're going to see a movie with "friends"...or, for that matter, when they tell their parents they're going out on a date with someone.

 

[crescent]

Oddly enough, a big part of the reason I stopped after Webelos was that I thought it seemed, well, gay to still have a boys-only program.

Girl Scouts has been getting criticism from women lately about the content of its magazine. The boy scout magazine is all about building things and going places, the girl scout magazine runs articles about hair and makeup.

I've met a number of girls and parents who prefer the Boy Scouts outdoor and STEM focus. There are some girl scout troops who do that as well, but they can be hard to find.

BSA has a program that appeals to many girls. Girl Scouts struggles against the socail double-standard that it is okay for girls to do boy things but not okay for boys to do girl things.

 

[madurobob]

Whether beneficial or not is irrelevant. The discussion is about quantity of choice.

I think you must have missed the last sentence in Tank's post.

 

[BobTheCoward]

I think you must have missed the last sentence in Tank's post.

I think I did.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Two other things at play in the BSA/LDS dynamic:

Like all long relationships there are many things at play, but yes, these two are huge.

1: BSA owns a lot of real estate. Here in Colorado I know of at least three big scout camps, hundreds of acres each developed with campgrounds, dining facilities, and various setups for activities - there may be more, I have not looked. Colorado is not unique that way. Quit BSA, lose access to a whole lot of facilities.

I think the church can compete out west, but yes the BSA dominates the facilities race nationwide. Which really plays into your next point:

2: LDS really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really really wants to be perceived as a mainstream religion. Like BSA, LDS is a group that struggles with how to manage itself in our current era of social division. If staying with BSA helps them appear to be mainstream, they'll knuckle under and do it.

If the LDS option really requires troops to head to Utah for big gatherings then it is really can't compare to the BSA. Sure, they could use state lands in some states and federal lands where they are good, but even there the BSA have a head start. I know they have already negotiated the use of some federal land adjoining BSA owned properties.

I think you are right that they will stick with the BSA and it is just embarrassing how long the BSA was pressured into changing their values for the LDS.

 

[Arisia]

Venture Scouting and Explorer Scouting (both for teens, less formal than Boy Scouting) are already co-ed, have been for awhile, even here in the US. This would be a first for the formal Boy Scouts of America hierarchy, and would start with girl-only Cub Scout packs.

I'm the wife of an Eagle Scout and mom of a Girl Scout who made it all the way through from Daisy to Ambassador, 'bridging out' of Scouting in 2015 when she turned 18, her troop was all for the camping/outdoor skills aspects that GS does offer. I just wish GSUSA would stop being so petty and offer to help the leaders of new girl-only Cub Scout packs (and the BSA in general) to help the girls be the best they can be, whichever organization they join.

 

[Brainster]

it's much worse than that. A lot of boys drop out when high school starts, but the program goes through age 17. My kid dropped out at 14, but a lot of the kids in his troop got their Eagle Scouts when they were seniors in high school. So those boy-girl issues are going to be pretty significant.

But, guess what, they already are. Boy Scout trips just won't be a refuge from it. Meanwhile, Venture Scouts are co-ed. That program goes 14-20, and emphasizes longer, more physically demanding, trips. They do fine. And yes, I'm sure that some of those kids do very fine indeed in those co-ed trips and......such is life. This is the modern world.

My guess is that making scouts co-ed will result in a lot more high schoolers sticking with the program.

If there is a significant number of girls, you're probably right. I know that I pretty much lost interest in scouts at the age I got more interested in girls. Does sound a bit like it's going to depend a lot on how many gals they can steal from the GSA.

 

[Checkmite]

So are they going to be called Young People Scouts, now?

It's my understanding that in the many countries where there already hasn't been a gendered program for decades they're simply called "Scouts".

 

[CORed]

it's much worse than that. A lot of boys drop out when high school starts, but the program goes through age 17. My kid dropped out at 14, but a lot of the kids in his troop got their Eagle Scouts when they were seniors in high school. So those boy-girl issues are going to be pretty significant.

But, guess what, they already are. Boy Scout trips just won't be a refuge from it. Meanwhile, Venture Scouts are co-ed. That program goes 14-20, and emphasizes longer, more physically demanding, trips. They do fine. And yes, I'm sure that some of those kids do very fine indeed in those co-ed trips and......such is life. This is the modern world.

My guess is that making scouts co-ed will result in a lot more high schoolers sticking with the program.

I pretty much lost interest in the Boy Scouts about the time I started high school. One of the reasons was that the older Scouts were expected to ride herd on the younger ones. That's not really a bad thing, but was something that at that stage of my life, I had absolutely no desire to do.

 

[madurobob]

I pretty much lost interest in the Boy Scouts about the time I started high school. One of the reasons was that the older Scouts were expected to ride herd on the younger ones. That's not really a bad thing, but was something that at that stage of my life, I had absolutely no desire to do.

This is one of the main reasons my youngest stayed in scouts and just made Eagle. Not only did he like the regimen - quite a bit different from his home life with a couple of freewheeling hippie parents - but he found he enjoyed being the boss of his peers and he was good at it. The kids tried to re-elect him SPL a third year running until the Scout Master stepped in and said they had to give someone else a chance.

Its certainly not for everyone. I didn't much like it as a kid and my oldest felt the same when he tried it out. But, its been great for our youngest. They'll get some nice contributions from us for the next few years as thanks.

 

[Puppycow]

it's much worse than that. A lot of boys drop out when high school starts, but the program goes through age 17. My kid dropped out at 14, but a lot of the kids in his troop got their Eagle Scouts when they were seniors in high school. So those boy-girl issues are going to be pretty significant.

But, guess what, they already are. Boy Scout trips just won't be a refuge from it. Meanwhile, Venture Scouts are co-ed. That program goes 14-20, and emphasizes longer, more physically demanding, trips. They do fine. And yes, I'm sure that some of those kids do very fine indeed in those co-ed trips and......such is life. This is the modern world.

My guess is that making scouts co-ed will result in a lot more high schoolers sticking with the program.

When they go camping, the girls can help the boys to pitch tents.

 

[cullennz]

When they go camping, the girls can help the boys to pitch tents.

Obviously with a bloke checking they have done it properly



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[angrysoba]

So are they going to be called Young People Scouts, now?

How about "Scouts"?

 

[jimbob]

You may have heard the recent news that the Boy Scouts will now start allowing girls to join. Earlier this year they had decided to start allowing transgender boys to join. The Girl Scouts did that a few years ago, around 2015 I think.

It seems like a logical decision to me: instead of getting into a whole debate about transgender issues, why not just allow kids who want to join to join regardless of sex. Makes it a moot issue. Also, parents of girls who want to join have been asking the Boy Scouts for years to allow girls in.

The Girl Scouts don't seem to be happy about it though. They think the Boy Scouts are trying to poach from them:

Girls are stars in Girl Scouts. They'd be supporting players in Boy Scouts.



And she claims to have "Science" to prove it. It is such a transparently self-serving argument. What works for most should therefore be mandatory for all. Why not let the kids themselves decide? Didn't we all know girls like that when we were kids? The tomboys who liked to play with the boys, doing boy stuff? And vice-versa too. Some boys might rather join the Girl Scouts. Don't force kids to change their whole gender identity if all they want is to play with other kids who like they same sort of things they do.

Anyway, I think the decision to allow girls who want to join the Boy Scouts to join is the right decision. The criticism coming from the Girl Scouts seems to be coming from the narrow viewpoint of is this good for our organization in particular, not whether offering an alternative choice might be good for some girls. Maybe in the future they'll just drop the "Boy" altogether and just call them Scouts?

This happend in the UK by the 1990s. Girlguiding is still going strong, and is pretty good campaigning specifically for women's and girls' rights - especially in less developed countries, and IMO is good at a national level but often is a bit lame at the local level. (My daughters went through until 14, then moved to Scouts because the 14-25 Girlguiding group was utterly unadventurous, but my eldest ended spending a week with female CEOs and other senior executives from large national organisations as part of the "Camp CEO" initiative.

I think that it's only a good thing for Scouts to have both boys and girls, but I don't see that it's a problem for there to be a girl only organisation.

 

[jimbob]

As for child protection policies, over the entire organisation, they should be equally stringent whether it is a mixed or a single gender organisation.

 

[madurobob]

As for child protection policies, over the entire organisation, they should be equally stringent whether it is a mixed or a single gender organisation.

Yup, and its fairly stringent today. The required number of adults per scout for *any* official gathering, be it a regular meeting or camp out, is pretty high. Long gone are the days of an adult troop leader and a couple of dozen scouts.

 

[Worm]

Boys do benefit from having all male learning environments.

Some do, sure. And they still can. Some benefit from a mixed environment. They now have that option. More choice.

I guess there's nothing to stop a co-ed organisation continuing to run sessions that are segregated, if they really want to. As long as there is a clear purpose to that. But I actually can't think of many things that would be better if experienced separately based on gender.

 

[Belz...]

How about "Scouts"?

Too generic. I'd confuse them with actual scouts i.e. people who scout for an armed force, etc.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Too generic. I'd confuse them with actual scouts i.e. people who scout for an armed force, etc.

That's the real function of the Boy Scouts, although they keep it quiet.

The Girl Scouts, however, is just a name, they don't move in advance of the troops for reconnaissance. Instead the Girl Scouts follow along after the battle and finish off any unconscious wounded, and remove any useful gear or valuables. Every one of those cookie recipes was looted from an enemy corpse.

As for the Brownies, nobody's yet been able to prove they manufacture chemical weapons. The last institution to investigate that was engulfed in nerve gas, so I guess we can never know.