fagin
Philosopher
Animals don't think deeply. they just eat, **** and breed.
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Gratitude, Compulsion, Idiocy or Nobility?
- Thread starter Kumar
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Peregrinus
Graduate Poster
- Joined
- Feb 21, 2015
- Messages
- 1,213
Except that you didn't. On either point.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Can or can't does not make a difference. Nature operates as nature does, and what you propose is not what happens. The balance of nature is maintained as it is. To change it might be good and righteous but it is not natural. Harmony is global not local, and the maintenance of balance is bloody.
You keep coming up with ideas about how nature could be, but what you want it to be is not what it is. Nature is not a park or a zoo. The lilting song of the wren is fueled by the meat it eats.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Kumar, nature is not a balance of all things living in harmony. It's a web of complex interactions - predators eating prey, animals eating plants, times of scarcities when prey and plants are over-predated leading to a die-off of predators, times of abundance where some or other species proliferate, punctuated by extinction events, volcanoes (which can change the climate for years) earthquakes, fires, floods and winds. Oh, and meteorite impacts.
Nothing in nature is harmonious; it's all a brief and bloody struggle for any species to survive against overwhelming odds.
Nothing in nature is harmonious; it's all a brief and bloody struggle for any species to survive against overwhelming odds.
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
Sorry Kumar, you have defined an assertion of your conclusion.
That fits no definitions of religion except for your idiomatic one
Dancing David
Penultimate Amazing
You were the one talking about clones, which are not needed to determine if something is an instinct
fromdownunder
Philosopher
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2006
- Messages
- 6,721
This!
Kumar, have you ever seen Meerkat Manor, where these cute little animals that look so harmless in a Zoo were filmed over a number of years in their natural environment? They would kill their own young or drive them out of the tribe, and then the young would create new tribes and go to war with the other tribes.
Nature is natural, not some sort of powerful overlord which controls our destiny. Meerkats simply do what they do, without caring about their environment or surrounds, or other Meerkats. It's what all sentient creatures do, it's what plants do, and there is no "higher power" in nature to decide otherwise. Nature on our mudball just is. Learn to live with it and stop trying to turn nature into some sort of "higher power".
If you think living "naturally" is a good thing, I invite you to spend a week in the Big Desert in Victoria, and see how long you last.
Norm
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
Here's another nice example. I was looking up some stuff about wasps today, an interesting critter, which I have a fondness for photographing. Wasps, once you get to know them, are quite marvelous, and possess a beauty that is unique. Most of the wasps around here are paper and mud wasps that probably are not parasitic, but some of the ones we meet are.
The parasitic wasp ampulex compressa enjoys a rather special relationship to the common cockroach. A wasp stings a cockroach, stunning it, and then lays an egg inside its body. With a second sting it interrupts the cockroach's nervous system, using a very sophisticated drug which leaves the cockroach alive, and mobile, but unable to operate under its own will. Nature has, with great ingenuity (e.t.a. by which I mean by the surprisingly effective mechanism of evolution, not a higher power) , provided the wasp with a specialized, potent neurotoxin which deprives the cockroach, not of its ability to do things, but its will! It is, essentially, a zombie slave. Exhausted from the stinging, the wasp then eats the cockroach's antennae as a refreshing snack, which also makes the cockroach that much less able to interact with its environment. It then leads the enslaved cockroach around, so as not to lose track of it, while the wasp larva leisurely eats the cockroach alive from inside. When it's done, the larva forms a cocoon inside the now dead cockroach's body.
This, friend, is nature in its complex glory. This is nature doing its job perfectly, the balance being maintained without regard for human values, for famine or plenty, for love or hate, for good or bad, for humane or inhumane. The lion does not lie down with the lamb and never will. It devours the lamb, and the vultures get the leftovers. Nature is cruel, bloody, amoral and beautifully complex beyond the lame imaginings of any religion.
The parasitic wasp ampulex compressa enjoys a rather special relationship to the common cockroach. A wasp stings a cockroach, stunning it, and then lays an egg inside its body. With a second sting it interrupts the cockroach's nervous system, using a very sophisticated drug which leaves the cockroach alive, and mobile, but unable to operate under its own will. Nature has, with great ingenuity (e.t.a. by which I mean by the surprisingly effective mechanism of evolution, not a higher power) , provided the wasp with a specialized, potent neurotoxin which deprives the cockroach, not of its ability to do things, but its will! It is, essentially, a zombie slave. Exhausted from the stinging, the wasp then eats the cockroach's antennae as a refreshing snack, which also makes the cockroach that much less able to interact with its environment. It then leads the enslaved cockroach around, so as not to lose track of it, while the wasp larva leisurely eats the cockroach alive from inside. When it's done, the larva forms a cocoon inside the now dead cockroach's body.
This, friend, is nature in its complex glory. This is nature doing its job perfectly, the balance being maintained without regard for human values, for famine or plenty, for love or hate, for good or bad, for humane or inhumane. The lion does not lie down with the lamb and never will. It devours the lamb, and the vultures get the leftovers. Nature is cruel, bloody, amoral and beautifully complex beyond the lame imaginings of any religion.
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It is the nature's way to maintain its balance. We can say, those preferring basic nature's rules, also support and practice such thing which happen naturally in basic nature(one, you described above) and other who prefer current nature, support and practice differently in modern way.
Sorry but why all these things can't happen to maintain nature's balance and harmony? Whether Nature, we or others remain existed for so long, didn't suggest that nature kept everything and being in harmony or balance? Such balance can be achieved by creation, maintenance or destruction depending on prevailing conditions but not just by anyone out of these. You can be healthy from lean by creating or adding muscles/fats or from obese to healthy by losing(destructing) fats.
Probably, we have not seen it.
Creation, maintenance and destruction are three tools of nature to keep it in balance not just one.
Because they follow basic nature's rules unless we make them fool or bonded.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Everything follows "nature's rules" all the time. The "rules" are physical laws, i.e. the way things are, not moral imperatives.
Not all things happen due to conscious mind. Whatever happen is important here not how it happened or done. Changes in nature happens. Every thing or béing may not be same or similar which it would hsd benn orgionàlly. Wé do not follow basic nstúre rules on our modern introductions.
Mojo
Mostly harmless
Yes, we do, because following "nature's rules" is not optional. The things that you imagine are "nature's rules" are neither natural nor rules; they are man-made concepts.
There can be bid debate on what can be natural and what man-made? I think, it will become matter of free will. But how man get initiation for so called as man-made is also matter of great debate. If basic nature's rules always will remain same, I feel, we can say these are the foundation of all acts & deeds done by man. Probably, it may be possible as many theories about progression of time(Yugas etc.) were made long back, which might had considered basis of these basic nature's rules as foundation stones.