Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[King of the Americas]

So, trying to tie this together, we have floods (even if they happened all at once, for ~400 foot increase) apparently destroying a civilisation that existed, not just on the then coastline, but also waaaay inland, and some 13,000 feet up (pre flooding Puma Punku), also waaay inland and over 3000 feet up (pre flooding Gobekli Tepe)...

The only one that comes even close is the Great Pyramids at Giza, which would have been some 180m above the then sea level. But still above the current level.

So how in hell did this flood destroy all the evidence of this ancient civilisation? As we keep asking, where is all the other junk that would be expected at these sites? The flood cannot have washed them away as the flooding we have evidence for never, ever, reached them.

Yes, Gilgamesh, Noah, the other flood myths...ALL TRUE. This flood, even if it didn't physically reach these locations, disrupted the global trade and civilization that this society depended on.

Not to be discussed here, but I believe some, or many escaped 'into the heavens' and are responsible for the UFO's we see today.

Please hear me THIS TIME:

The ruins ARE evidence of this ancient civilization.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

"Where are the artifacts?"

In the hands of treasure hoarders. Archeologists are not a new invention. People have been digging and collecting for personal gain and enrichment for as long as there have been people here. We don't 'see' it because it is in private collections, OR they have been misattributed to their proper makers, like so many ruins.

Sure, every fish hook, spear, shard of pottery, tooth, brick, dungheap or fire pit sits in the vaults of some excentric millionaire who prefers to keep every last shard of evidence of a never before documented world spanning civilisation secret, because reasons... Should we move this thread to CT?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

"Where are the artifacts?"

In the hands of treasure hoarders. Archeologists are not a new invention. People have been digging and collecting for personal gain and enrichment for as long as there have been people here. We don't 'see' it because it is in private collections, OR they have been misattributed to their proper makers, like so many ruins.

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
All the animal bones, the teeth, the shells, all of it? In private collections, spirited away without a single piece being found when the owner died, never being sold, never stolen and surfacing in the market later, never being donated to museums? Really?
Furthermore, how could you possibly know this? If all these missing artefacts are being held in private collections, and have never been shown to the public, how do you know they are there?
As for misattribution, perhaps you could share your expertise with the poor ignorant museum curators of the world, and clear this up? Again, with this point, how could you know this?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Please hear me THIS TIME:

The ruins ARE evidence of this ancient civilization.

The ruins you posted a picture of? Including the ones from 700-1700 CE?

 

[King of the Americas]

If you don't know how to make arches, flying buttresses etc and you want to build something big and impressive with the minimum amount of rock then a pyramid is pretty much your only option.

Yes, ignore that many of these structures share celestial alignment(s), size, and function...

 

[John Jones]

The woo is strong on this thread

 

[Craig B]

Puma Punku was NOT created using chisels...

Let me repeat:

Why do you keep stating "stone chisels", and "flint chisels"? The methods suggested have included wooden wedges, and stone mauls to make depressions in surfaces then smoothed down with flat stones and abrasive sand. Has anyone insisted on "stone chisels"?​

 

[Craig B]

Yes, ignore that many of these structures share celestial alignment(s), size, and function...

Different civilisations acting independently at different times see the same sky, don't they? That's why they share many of the same "celestial alignments". The sun rises in the East in Peru. The sun rises in the East in Egypt.

 

[King of the Americas]

I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous.
All the animal bones, the teeth, the shells, all of it? In private collections, spirited away without a single piece being found when the owner died, never being sold, never stolen and surfacing in the market later, never being donated to museums? Really?
Furthermore, how could you possibly know this? If all these missing artefacts are being held in private collections, and have never been shown to the public, how do you know they are there?
As for misattribution, perhaps you could share your expertise with the poor ignorant museum curators of the world, and clear this up? Again, with this point, how could you know this?

Ridiculous?

Yes, what was not destroyed or carried away by the flood was collected and still exists, or has yet to be found. Google: "unexplainable ancient machines"

Shall we begin with Dr. Hawass, and how difficult it is to do research or dig at Giza?

I KNOW Puma Punku was NOT created using chisels because I have carved many kinds of stones using various tools.

 

[King of the Americas]

The woo is strong on this thread

Your presence here is...unproductive.

 

[Craig B]

Ridiculous?

Yes, what was not destroyed or carried away by the flood was collected and still exists, or has yet to be found. Google: "unexplainable ancient machines"

Shall we begin with Dr. Hawass, and how difficult it is to do research or dig at Giza?

I KNOW Puma Punku was NOT created using chisels because I have carved many kinds of stones using various tools.

I see I have to say it yet again, but no problem.

Let me repeat:

Why do you keep stating "stone chisels", and "flint chisels"? The methods suggested have included wooden wedges, and stone mauls to make depressions in surfaces then smoothed down with flat stones and abrasive sand. Has anyone insisted on "stone chisels"?​

 

[Hans]

Associated with???

I am associated with my grandparents' house, but I didn't build it. It bares my name, and I am sure even my likeness therein, but it is not mine.

I repeat Puma Punku was not formed using bronze, copper, or stone chisels and knotted string by a people with no written language. Although I have not worked with diorite, I can "expertly" say, neither copper or bronze, and not or even diorite or flint chisels could be responsible for the ruins there.

Oh my I hope you don't think PP was made with diorite - that is lie made up by fringe people who delight in misleading people - are you mislead too?

Yawn, you've already been told, pounders & abrasives. Look up that word, then go read Protzen's books and paper. Then you won't be uneducated - it isn't hard.

You keep repeating the same claims - why do you think they get better on repeating? lol

Remember that stone you didn't know about - yeah an incomplete PP stone, showing sections finished, in progress and not started - using pounders and abrasives.

Nothing? Except these transcontinental stone and other pyramid ruins...??

Those belong to other people - whose finds are associated with said ruins - what of your invisible civilization? Nothing

Now if your entire arguments consists of repeating over and over the claims you've been told to believe by fringe believers I'm gonna have to start laughing at you.

 

[Hans]

Shall we begin with Dr. Hawass, and how difficult it is to do research or dig at Giza?

Hawass? He hasn't been in charge of Giza for many years. You know he not head of the SCA anymore....hello earth to KOTA?

 

[Hans]

The woo is strong on this thread

Very and if you stand by it will get repeated over and over again.

 

[Hans]

Please hear me THIS TIME:

The ruins ARE evidence of this ancient civilization.

Yes but not the one you were told to believe in

I think your best bet is to repeat the same claim another 2,123 times. Then somewhere, someplace some will be impressed...lol

 

[Hans]

No.

I am saying that there was global connection, trade, and knowledge between several civilizations, not unlike today.

Pyramids and celestial aligned large stone structures appear around the world.

Easiest structure to make if you want to get up high in the sky, all these pyramids were built in different ways and had different purposes and were built thousands of years apart.

'World trade huh' so where are all the common 'bits' to be found on every continent?

Ever hear of Arikamedu. Silly me of course you haven't research is obviously not a big factor in your beliefs....chuckle

Roman trade port in India: Lots of Romans stuff there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arikamedu

THAT is what happens in trade between civilizations - not what your 'trade' causes - nothing.

 

[Hans]

Your presence here is...unproductive.

...and you posting the same claims over and over again is 'productive'?

To make this thread somewhat productive:

A reconstruction of PP and below that a map showing where PP was and its two main quarries:

Some excellent red sandstone construction:

 

[King of the Americas]

Oh my I hope you don't think PP was made with diorite - that is lie made up by fringe people who delight in misleading people - are you mislead too?

Yawn, you've already been told, pounders & abrasives. Look up that word, then go read Protzen's books and paper. Then you won't be uneducated - it isn't hard.

You keep repeating the same claims - why do you think they get better on repeating? lol

Remember that stone you didn't know about - yeah an incomplete PP stone, showing sections finished, in progress and not started - using pounders and abrasives.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/Dssmx1H.jpg[/qimg]



Those belong to other people - whose finds are associated with said ruins - what of your invisible civilization? Nothing

Now if your entire arguments consists of repeating over and over the claims you've been told to believe by fringe believers I'm gonna have to start laughing at you.

Use "pounders & abrasives" and cut a few descending squares with right corners, and let me know how that works out.

 

[King of the Americas]

Hawass? He hasn't been in charge of Giza for many years. You know he not head of the SCA anymore....hello earth to KOTA?

Right, I am SURE he and his ilk are no longer 'in charge ' of Giza... pfft.

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes but not the one you were told to believe in

I think your best bet is to repeat the same claim another 2,123 times. Then somewhere, someplace some will be impressed...lol

When other posters 'repeat' where's the evidence of this lost civilization, I am FORCED to repeat the fact that they are ignoring the ruins.

If you don't want a repeat answer, stop asking the same question.