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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

Matthew Ellard said:
Good news. I found the original 3 minute opening scene of the movie Atlantis : The Lost Continent (1961): "a series of Mysteries". It is from this three minute scene that King of America is getting his "evidence."

This is the "evidence" that Atlantis was real, due to things like pyramids and bananas appearing on both continents. It is very easy to spot all the holes.

This clip is impressive because it is from 1961 and almost a decade before Von Daniken used to same rubbish arguments in his film "Chariot of the Gods".

Entertainingly, the voice over artist is Paul Frees who later played Boris Badenov in the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.

Turner Network / Classic Trailers / Opener "Atlantis : The Lost Continent"
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/...ntinent-Movie-Clip-A-Series-Of-Mysteries.html
Click to expand...

Oooh a classically 'good' bad movie
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Good news. I found the original 3 minute opening scene of the movie Atlantis : The Lost Continent (1961): "a series of Mysteries". It is from this three minute scene that King of America is getting his "evidence."

This is the "evidence" that Atlantis was real, due to things like pyramids and bananas appearing on both continents. It is very easy to spot all the holes.

This clip is impressive because it is from 1961 and almost a decade before Von Daniken used to same rubbish arguments in his film "Chariot of the Gods".

Entertainingly, the voice over artist is Paul Frees who later played Boris Badenov in the Rocky & Bullwinkle Show.

Turner Network / Classic Trailers / Opener "Atlantis : The Lost Continent"
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/video/...ntinent-Movie-Clip-A-Series-Of-Mysteries.html
Click to expand...

Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

The holes?

I think the hole is in one's reasoning that would allow a person to dismiss or ignore such connections.
 
Hans said:
Evidenced - could you please show where your imaginary civilization meets your own criteria?

to wit:


So again where is this for your civilization?

I love it when you self debunk yourself....hilarious.
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The building technique that I 'think' was employed would not have produced debris. I believe the blocks (some) were molded not carved. This would also have required fewer laborers. One machine that molds stone would be easier to vanish than thousands of stone or bronze hammers. Where's the debris field, worker's complex, or written language required for the stoneworks' construction?

I'm saying it didn't happen that way, or there would be evidence because there would ABSOLUTELY BE remains still around if it was that young. It is older, much much older, and the techniques used were NOT hammers and abrasives, but a technique 'lost' to time.

We do NOT 'know' how these stones were fashioned.

Claiming they were carved with bronze or stone hammers is pure fiction with zero evidence, period. *ETA: Okay, not pure fiction. It is a weak theory with little validity.
 
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Hans said:
No you were wrong, you think, like many fringe believers, that somehow Hawass is in charge....he ain't, come visit the rest of us in reality world.
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Taken from: http://www.aeraweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/aeragram5_2_2002.pdf

"We worked in this area ahead of a team constructing a high security wall that will enclose the Giza Plateau, running on the eastern side of the site along the modem road. This wall is part of the site management program of Dr. Zahi Hawass..."

Yep, that sounds very hands-off.
 
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King of the Americas said:
Bananas, pyramids, gold and silver coinage, flood myth, witches, elephants, the Gregorian calendar, signs of the zodiac, numbers and decimals...

The holes?

I think the hole is in one's reasoning that would allow a person to dismiss or ignore such connections.
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Gold and silver coinage in ancient America? News to me. Examples, please.

Elephants - you mean you think these were used as domesticated animals both in the Old World and the New? If you mean palaentological or fossil evidence dating from before humans were in the Americas, what about horses?

Where are the common number notations you refer to? The Mayas had vigesimal place value notation; the Egyptians had no place value. The Babylonians had it.

The Gregorian calendar was introduced in 1582, not at the end of the Ice Age. It was carried into America by the Spaniards who by that time were already there.

[ETA: to be precise on this point, wiki tells us that
On 29 September 1582, Philip II of Spain decreed the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendar. This affected much of Roman Catholic Europe, as Philip was at the time ruler over Spain and Portugal as well as much of Italy. ... The Spanish and Portuguese colonies followed somewhat later de facto because of delay in communication.​
/ETA]

It was not adopted by Britain until 1752, and by Russia until 1918. It is not an ancient invention found in all continents. What is this rubbish you're handing us now?
 
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Do hunter gatherers have kilns?

How many people does it take to support one kiln, in the pre-idusterial world?

We are talking about fires that burn over 1000 degrees for several hours, some pottery showing evidence of reaching over 1400 degrees. Does this require, or rather is this evidence of an 'advanced civilization?'
 
I love it when people use the fact of there being ancient pyramids in more than one place as being evidence of something strange going on, rather than as evidence that putting stones in a pile is the most efficient method of stacking them and the most likely to survive through the years.
 
King of the Americas said:
Do hunter gatherers have kilns?

How many people does it take to support one kiln, in the pre-idusterial world?

We are talking about fires that burn over 1000 degrees for several hours, some pottery showing evidence of reaching over 1400 degrees. Does this require, or rather is this evidence of an 'advanced civilization?'
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No. A fire in a kiln for several hours proves the existence of kilns and control of fire - and that the civilisation possessing them lasted for longer than several hours.

Were these by any chance electric kilns? No? Too bad. Not advanced technology then. Fire is pretty basic technology. Cave dwellers had it.
 
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Squeegee Beckenheim said:
I love it when people use the fact of there being ancient pyramids in more than one place as being evidence of something strange going on, rather than as evidence that putting stones in a pile is the most efficient method of stacking them and the most likely to survive through the years.
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Funny that anyone can focus on one potentially dismissible piece of evidence, while ignore that several have similar base sizes, AND the scores of other connections...pfft
 
King of the Americas said:
Funny that anyone can focus on one potentially dismissible piece of evidence, while ignore that several have similar base sizes, AND the scores of other connections...pfft
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If that is your current subject of thought, you will wish urgently to consider my points about calendars and bananas. You will also wish to give details of these similar base sizes, and the "scores of other connections" you observe in ancient pyramids.

Pyramids are about the only shape of high buildings that can be made if only primitive techniques are available. If you pile up a heap of sand without any design, it will, quite naturally, assume a roughly pyramidal shape. That's why these early buildings, if high ones, were constructed in that pyramidal form.
 
King of the Americas said:
Do hunter gatherers have kilns?
Click to expand...
No. Nor pyramids either. Neither existed at the end of the Ice Age.
How many people does it take to support one kiln, in the pre-idusterial world?
Click to expand...
Typically, a single family household. A study of early colonial N America notes
... domestic pottery manufacture in the Northeast from its beginning as a small, family-based enterprise in the 1620s​
 
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King of the Americas said:
The building technique that I 'think' was employed would not have produced debris. I believe the blocks (some) were molded not carved.

We do NOT 'know' how these stones were fashioned.
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Yes we have theories on how it was done. Of course the Spanish observed the Incan workers building stuff and the Incan workers were from Tiwanaku.

The problem with the 'molded' idea is that image of an incomplete block from PP that I have showed you. It shows a block with parts completed, started and in the rough.

Please explain how your theory covers that?

Dssmx1H.jpg


The core stones of the pyramid are not molded nor are any known structure - unless they made different molds for each stone.........

Additionally we have their quarries - why quarry rock, break it up (a hard task) only to reform it? Madness. 'The blanks' in the walls of quarries show quite clearly they removed blocks and weren't 'rubbling' it which is what you would need for 'concrete' or molding.

Additionally you avoided my full question: it will be repeated until answered.

You said that a civilization must have the following to carve stone (sic)

large settlement, tools, debris, 'a written language'
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Please show that your imaginary had any of these?
 
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steenkh said:
Has Atlantis - the Lost Continent ever been proved fictional? ;)
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No, unproven and highly unlikely. Just like we cannot prove that somewhere someplace at sometime unicorns may have existed. Hard to prove a negative.
 
King of the Americas said:
Taken from: http://www.aeraweb.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/aeragram5_2_2002.pdf

"We worked in this area ahead of a team constructing a high security wall that will enclose the Giza Plateau, running on the eastern side of the site along the modem road. This wall is part of the site management program of Dr. Zahi Hawass..."

Yep, that sounds very hands-off.
Click to expand...

D'uh - that dates from 2002 dude when he was still on the job. He resigned on July 17, 2011

So you were still wrong. Are you one of strange people who can never admit when they make a mistake?
 
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