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According to the AP, the specific sound that's been published occurred in several different recordings.

Quite obviously it could not have been supersonic if embassy personnel were able to hear and record the sound using traditional devices.



There are; the original AP report said that this published bit was an excerpt - that according to the State Department investigators there were several recordings, that featured multi-tonal sounds with characteristics that differed from recording to recording, but that all of them had this particular element in common.

We may not agree on what the evidence indicates, but can we get some agreement on what the evidence is?

Personally, my shot in the dark guess is malfunctioning shortwave electronic pest repelling devices.
 
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Personally, my shot in the dark guess is malfunctioning shortwave electronic pest repelling devices.

Apparently devices like that would have to be in the room that they're supposed to keep free from pests and would be pretty easy to spot. And even though the Hotel Capri is very close to the Malecon and consequently the ocean, I guess they would be used against bats rather than dolphins! :)
 
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What kind of compensation can these embassy victims receive?

I have not heard symptoms serious enough that they could not be accommodated to return to work in some other reassignment. They get some period of paid leave and all their medical is covered. Anything else?
 
US confirms two more victims + tourist fears he was targeted years ago

At this point it appears as if any kind of ailment counts as a symptom of the alleged attacks:
(my italics and (!), dann)
U.S. confirms two more victims in Cuba sonic attacks, bringing total to 24
The U.S. has said that vestibular, cognitive, vision (!) and other (!) problems (!) have been reported by the victims, with some experiencing memory and balance issues, headaches and ringing in the ears.
(globalnews.ca, Oct. 20, 2017)


The article about the tourist is very long, but it now seems as if the 'attacks' started years ago:
American tourist says Cuba’s sonic attack may have hit him
One troubling fact is true for tourists and embassy workers alike: There’s no test (!) to definitively (!) say who was attacked with a mysterious, unseen weapon and whose symptoms might be entirely unrelated. The United States hasn’t disclosed what criteria prove its assertion that 22 embassy workers and their spouses are “medically confirmed” victims.
To me this sounds as if anything goes in this case!
The story continues:
(…)
After spending his first day walking the city, he checked into room 1414 of the recently refurbished Hotel Capri. Within minutes of going to bed, he started losing feeling.
The tingling originated in his toes, like that prickly feeling when your foot falls asleep. It spread into his ankles and calves, then to his fingertips. He got up to investigate, and the sensation went away. He got back in bed. The tingling returned, reaching his hands, forearms, ears, cheek and neck.[/i]
Unless he was sleeping on a vibrating mattress (or dreamed/hallucinated the whole thing), I don't know how to explain his symptoms.
But when he heard about the recent alleged sonic attacks on U.S. diplomats/spies, he immediately recognized them as fellow sufferers:
“I wanted to wave a flag and be like, I know this, I know what it is like to stay there and have something weird (!) happen to your body and not be able to explain it,” Allen said in an hour-long interview in his office in Charleston.
(globalnews.ca, Oct. 19, 2017)


CBS News also tells his story:
Tourist fears he was hit by mystery attack in Cuba, years before diplomats (CBS, Oct. 19, 2017)
 
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At this point it appears as if any kind of ailment counts as a symptom of the alleged attacks:

That's not consistent with the article you quoted, which says that at this point the US government has not actually delineated what counts as a symptom of the alleged attacks.
 
According to the AP, the specific sound that's been published occurred in several different recordings.

There are multiple people with inconsistent symptoms all claiming to be affected. There are recordings of 'audible' sound that could be anything. It is also inconsistent and defies the laws of physics if that is the culprit. It should be reproducible but there are caveats, don't worry the recordings won't hurt anyone. :rolleyes:

The point is, like all hysterical reactions like this one, inconsistency is consistent. If you want to believe this is anything besides hysteria, have at it.
 
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We may not agree on what the evidence indicates, but can we get some agreement on what the evidence is?

Personally, my shot in the dark guess is malfunctioning shortwave electronic pest repelling devices.
Could explain some of the sound, does not explain the symptoms.
 
What kind of compensation can these embassy victims receive?

I have not heard symptoms serious enough that they could not be accommodated to return to work in some other reassignment. They get some period of paid leave and all their medical is covered. Anything else?

Whatever version of federal worker's comp applies to their jobs is a common expectation of people complaining of things like this.
 
That's not consistent with the article you quoted, which says that at this point the US government has not actually delineated what counts as a symptom of the alleged attacks.

That is the point exactly:
There’s no test (!) to definitively (!) say who was attacked with a mysterious, unseen weapon and whose symptoms might be entirely unrelated. The United States hasn’t disclosed what criteria prove its assertion that 22 embassy workers and their spouses are “medically confirmed” (!!!) victims.
The assertion stands, but apparently the alleged symptoms don’t! And yet, without a motive, without a weapon or even a proper description of what would constitute this weapon (or “device”) and without a consistent set of symptoms, the U.S. Administration is able to claim that Cuba is responsible for “attacks that sickened U.S. diplomats”: “I do believe Cuba’s responsible, I do believe that,” Trump said.
And, of course, as long as the symptoms aren't remotely clear, any person who at any time experienced any kind of symptoms, like the "tingling" sensations in any part of the body, is now free to imagine that he or she is a victim of the Cuban science-fiction device!
 
:boggled:

Non sequitur? Not sure what you are getting at.

The Tonkin Gulf Ghosts were the WMDs of the Vietnam War. They were not what caused the war. They served as an excuse for escalating a war that the USA wanted to escalate.
In the present situation, Trump does believe that "Cuba's responsible" because this belief serves his interest in shutting down the newly established diplomatic relationship between the U.S. and Cuba.
However, we are not talking about the need to believe that James Randi has mentioned time and again: In this case, any excuse will do.
And consider the alleged recordings of the "device": Are they even actual recordings or did somebody make them up? Why didn't these recordings appear until more and more experts started to "suspect a psychosomatic disorder linked to high stress in Havana"?! I hope that some acoustics experts will be able to come up with an explanation for how sounds like these can be made and what purpose they might serve …
 
That is the point exactly:

The assertion stands, but apparently the alleged symptoms don’t! And yet, without a motive, without a weapon or even a proper description of what would constitute this weapon (or “device”) and without a consistent set of symptoms, the U.S. Administration is able to claim that Cuba is responsible for “attacks that sickened U.S. diplomats”: “I do believe Cuba’s responsible, I do believe that,” Trump said.
And, of course, as long as the symptoms aren't remotely clear, any person who at any time experienced any kind of symptoms, like the "tingling" sensations in any part of the body, is now free to imagine that he or she is a victim of the Cuban science-fiction device!

Well, firstly let's whittle down a dividing line between media speculation and what the government is actually claiming. The facts, as presented by the government, are:

1. Numerous Americans attached to the embassy in Havana since its reopening have been suffering from some kind of somatoform disorder.

2. The complaints of symptoms are specifically correlated with having spent time working at the embassy and living in the American accommodations at the recently-renovated Hotel Capri.

3. Somatic symptoms were later experienced by personnel sent to Havana to investigate the initial complaints.

4. Some of the complaints allege audible, high-pitched sounds that seemed coincidental with development of the somatic symptoms. Some of the alleged sufferers recorded the sounds, so there can be no question they existed.

5. The recordings had many different sounds on them, but a particular sonic element common to the various recordings was found and isolated for further study, and a clip of this isolated element was provided to the AP (the sound you hear in the videos linked above).

The State Department and the US intelligence community does seem to be of a mind that the sound is part of a deliberate harassment campaign, which they have deemed an attack. They have not said Cuba is culpable. President Trump has implied that he believes they are, but the president has objectively and repeatedly proven to be an unreliable source and lacks any credibility to speak with authority on what the actual opinion of any government agency is, as he regularly contradicts, misrepresents, and/or repudiates those opinions in favor of his personal thoughts on any given matter when making public statements. So in that sense, whatever he says about the matter can be ignored.

What can not be claimed as fact OR the assessment of the government based on statements they have made:

A. That all of the symptoms that have been reported so far are the result of the alleged "attack"; proper research requires that all potentially relevant data be collected,

B. That the sounds themselves somehow caused any or all of the symptoms; so far there is only a correlation that isn't well understood (so far as is being said publicly),

C. That the sounds and whatever produced them are necessarily the only vector by which American diplomatic personnel were being "attacked" or harassed.

D. That the element in the sound clip released to the AP is the only thing in the recordings the government investigators find interesting or potentially important.

Any impressions you have of the situation so far that aren't consistent with all of the above, come from speculation being reported with more weight than it ought.
 
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The facts, as presented by the government, are:
<snip>
3. Somatic symptoms were later experienced by personnel sent to Havana to investigate the initial complaints.

5. The recordings had many different sounds on them, but a particular sonic element common to the various recordings was found and isolated for further study, and a clip of this isolated element was provided to the AP (the sound you hear in the videos linked above).
<snip>
D. That the element in the sound clip released to the AP is the only thing in the recordings the government investigators find interesting or potentially important.

Any impressions you have of the situation so far that aren't consistent with all of the above, come from speculation being reported with more weight than it ought.

On pt 3: Investigators sent to Cuba to investigate the attacks also got attacked? I can not locate such a claim.Can you tell me where you got that information?

On pt 5: The AP doesn't say where they obtained this recording or why they would assume it to be authentic. No sources are cited, even in a general way such as "sources close to the investigation..." They seem to be self-referencing - reporting a story about a recording that they themselves released as if they are the source. Did I miss an article somewhere?

AP said the Navy and State Dept. did not comment on it.

So, where did it come from? Who recorded it? And why should anyone take it seriously?
 
On pt 3: Investigators sent to Cuba to investigate the attacks also got attacked? I can not locate such a claim.Can you tell me where you got that information?

I remember reading that fairly recently (and not in Checkmite's post), but I don't recall where.
 
The facts, as presented by the government, are:
The alleged facts, as presented by … Or: It is a fact that the government claims that …

1. Numerous Americans attached to the embassy in Havana since its reopening have been suffering from some kind of somatoform disorder.
… from several kinds of somatoform disorders.

4. (…) Some of the alleged sufferers recorded the sounds, so there can be no question they existed.
That the recordings, as published by the AP, exist is a fact. That they were allegedly recorded by the alleged sufferers is also a fact, but only to that extent: There is good reason to question that they are actual recordings of the alleged attack.

5. The recordings had many different sounds on them, but a particular sonic element common to the various recordings was found and isolated for further study, and a clip of this isolated element was provided to the AP (the sound you hear in the videos linked above).
… was allegedly found and isolated ...

President Trump has implied that he believes …
President Trump says that he believes ...

... whatever he says about the matter can be ignored.
… unless you're a Cuban diplomat who's been ordered to leave the USA. (But you are right, of course, as long as we are talking about how to epistemologically assess the credibility of claims in this case. :)
 
I remember reading that fairly recently (and not in Checkmite's post), but I don't recall where.


I still cannot find it. The only recent thing that may have been misconstrued is that Intelligence Officers under diplomatic cover had been targeted. But that news claimed they were among the very first cases, not sent there to investigate them.
 
4. Some of the complaints allege audible, high-pitched sounds that seemed coincidental with development of the somatic symptoms. Some of the alleged sufferers recorded the sounds, so there can be no question they existed...

Someone recorded some sounds. I don't know who, nor where, nor what equipment they used, nor whether what they recorded is what the recordist heard, nor how quiet these sounds were.

For all I know they turned the volume up so far that most of what we hear is electronic noise generated within whatever they made the recording on.

If people are going to use these recordings as evidence Cuba tried to turn people into newts, I'd like to know a bit more about what the recordings actually are.
 
PS
1. Numerous Americans attached to the embassy in Havana since its reopening have been suffering from some kind of somatoform disorder.

… from several kinds of somatoform disorders.

In at least one case the disorder probably wasn't somatoform. One person now has a hearing aid, but the question remains: What caused the loss of hearing that correlated with the story of sonic attacks? And was that person one of those who heard the weird noise or one of those who didn't?
 

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