Merged Remember the West Memphis 3?

[John Jones]

He is on record as saying he freely wanted to confess because he didn't want Echols and Baldwin to 'get away with it'. He also confirmed the police had treated him well, on record.

And that couldn't possibly be coerced.

Why did Misskelley recant and refuse to testify against Echols and Baldwin the next 17 years?

 

[DragonLady]

No. They may have sold millions of albums, but that did not stop millions of fundamentalist Christians, such as my parents and the leaders of the church they attended, from claiming that their music was satanic and that listening to it would turn people into murderous devil worshippers. That was near the height of the "satanic panic" nonsense and anything even remotely dark or spooky got tagged as "satanism".

Yes; this. During that era, there were school conferences about the horrors of listening to heavy metal music. Parents were given lists of things to look for, and it wasn't unusual for kids to have their rooms searched for things like black clothing, stuff related to Dungeons and Dragons, tarot cards and Ouija boards...all signs of a baby sacrificing, mass murdering, virgin killing, blood drinking Satan worshipper cleverly disguised as an ordinary child.

Some kids started believing they really were "possessed" or "evil" because they simply couldn't deny loving Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath -and of course, those band names played right into the fears. So, of course, they lived down to the expectations, and proceeded to find trouble simply because they believed it was their destiny. Others saw making claims of terrible deeds as a way of scoring points with these mysterious, unnamed rulers of the world. It wasn't entirely unusual for a kid to come to school claiming he had burnt down a building or cut the throat of a virgin -bald lies that gained all kinds of attention and created a spooky reputation no one else wanted to challenge.

Parents who had never actually listened to Twisted Sister, and had no clue what they sounded like, were full of lore about "backward masking" and "hypnotic subliminal messages". Gospel preachers on television never ran out of things to say about the way Satan had infiltrated the school and was forever ruining the eternal souls of those who listened to lyrics rife with sex and violence...even if it wasn't nearly as raunchy as the stuff of prime time TV.

 

[John Jones]

There is no evidence of urine in the boys stomachs. Steve Jones said that to Damien on the morning of May 7th, before the autopsies had even been performed. So either Jones was trotting out something he'd read in his Satanic panic literature, or if there was urine present, Jones was involved in the murder because how else would he have known?

IIRC, Steve Jones was the one who called the murders a Satanic ritual in the first place, and named Damien Echols as a suspect before the medical examiner even arrived. He was noted as flicking cigarette butts around the crime scene.

 

[Rolfe]

Well, several people have said Misskelley was wrongfully made to confess without an adult there, as he was of subnormal IQ. Fact is, 72 is within the normal range and he had scored 84 and 88 in the past.

None of that is relevant at all. He was interrogated for hours without this being recorded and this is an absolutely classic example of the genre of coerced confessions as described by Godsey. Please stop accusing me of things you say have been done by unidentified "several people".

Police had no reason to suspect Hobbs. The Echols/Baldwin supporters tried to pin it on Hobbs when a hair on a shoe lace was identified which fit 1.5% of the population fit him, but not the three defendants. Given he was the boy's stepfather from the same household it doesn't mean much. For example, my DNA haplotype is just 1.5% of the general population, yet in Denmark and Finland, the figure rises to 20%, which leaves several million fellow haplotype carriers! It is interesting, but meaningless.

The hair in question was found in the knotted lace binding Michal Moore. Hobbs was the stepfather of Steve Branch. Of course police had reason to suspect him. He was the stepfather of one of the victims for crying out loud. That's pretty much guaranteed to have the police baying after him in most cases, just on its own.

About Hobbs' movements. The argument is he would not have been able to kill the boys and clean up all in that time frame. His neighbour Jacoby, vouched that he had come over to play guitar for about an hour. The fact Hobbs went out looking for the kids means little, as half the neighbourhood were also out looking.

"I think you'll find it's all a bit more complicated than that." Whose argument? Is it well supported? What exactly is Jacoby's role in all this anyway and what did he say?

As for 'Mr Bojangles', he's entered into urban mythology. Some guy who appeared to be injured by gunshot wound staggered into a local fastfood chain used the toilet, left a mess, and now he's a suspect as 'the real killer'. Yet police never believed he had anything to do with is, as (a) his arm was in a cast, and (b) the murders have nothing to do with guns.

Nobody knows who he was. He cannot possibly have been ruled out, as you claimed. Police simply failed to follow up the lead. We can't even know how much of the restaurant-owner's evidence was correct unless the man is found and identified, which was never done. Of course he could have been the killer.

And posting images of pages of eBooks rather than primary evidence isn't really very compelling.

 

[Strawberry]

IIRC, Steve Jones was the one who called the murders a Satanic ritual in the first place, and named Damien Echols as a suspect before the medical examiner even arrived. He was noted as flicking cigarette butts around the crime scene.

He was also the person who saw the shoe floating in the ditch and sent Mike Allen in to retrieve it, leading to the discovery of the bodies. You could make a case that Jones himself is a suspicious character, he and Jerry Driver were obsessed with Satanism, they went driving round West Memphis on the night of every full moon looking for signs of satanic cult activity, and both had a lengthy history of accusing Damien of pretty much everything that went on in West Memphis.

Maybe Steve Jones should be asked for his alibi, bearing in mind that the murders took place on the night of a full moon.

 

[Vixen]

I don't think that came from Gitchell to be fair to him. It seems to have come from Steve Jones's imagination, then got spread around as if it were true, till by May 26th the detective in charge of the case not only thinks its true but thinks it came from the pathologist.

Glitchell confirms that Steve Jones would not have known as the information had not been released as of that time.

Glitchell was not given that information until 16 May, by phone, some six days after Echols bragged of his knowledge of it.

Like other narcissistic killers (for example, Amanda Knox, who bragged she knew Meredith Kercher had had her throat slit and died a long painful death) he just could not resist boasting of special insider knowledge.

See citation attached.

 

[DragonLady]

Another thing...it's entirely possible these boys may have somewhat believed some of the theology that was being tossed around, and may well have been willing to claim to be Satanists under the misguided idea that Satan would, in turn, protect them from harm.

It's twisted thinking, to be sure, but somewhat in alignment with the concepts being tossed around. If Satan controlled the musicians, the game publishers, the clothing manufacturers, the knife and goblet factories, the school textbook publishers...well, he probably controlled the police, too. So it would make sense he would make sure they all protected each other so the evil works would continue.

 

[Strawberry]

Glitchell confirms that Steve Jones would not have known as the information had not been released as of that time.

Glitchell was not given that information until 16 May, by phone, some six days after Echols bragged of his knowledge of it.

Like other narcissistic killers (for example, Amanda Knox, who bragged she knew Meredith Kercher had had her throat slit and died a long painful death) he just could not resist boasting of special insider knowledge.

See citation attached.

Echols did not brag of his knowledge of it, and the only citation I need to see is the transcript of Echols May 10th police interview, not your stupid e book. Here's what actually happened in the May 10th interview...

DAMIEN STATED THAT STEVE JONES FROM THE JUVENILE AUTHORITY HAD BEEN BY TO SEE HIM A DAY OR TWO BEFORE AND THAT STEVE HAD TOLD HIM ABOUT HOW THE BOYS TESTICLES HAD BEEN CUT OFF AND THAT SOMEONE HAD URINATED IN THEIR MOUTHS. HE STATED THAT STEVE STATED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN THE REASON THAT THE BODIES WERE PLACED IN THE WATER SO THAT THE URINE COULD HAVE BEEN WASHED OUT.

http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/dwe.html

There's no question but that Damien was telling the truth about the contents of his conversation with Steve Jones either - Lt Sudbury was present at both Jones's conversation with Damien on May 7th, and the police interview on May 10th/ If Damien had lied about being told that by Jones, Sudbury would have said something - especially if there was urine in the boys stomachs. For a suspect to know something like that and lie about how they know would be incriminating evidence that would form part of the case for the prosecution.

 

[Rolfe]

Glitchell confirms that Steve Jones would not have known as the information had not been released as of that time.

Glitchell was not given that information until 16 May, by phone, some six days after Echols bragged of his knowledge of it.

Where is the actual evidence of the existence of this "urine"? So far, none has been provided.

We know you don't like Amanda Knox, there's no point in posting wild diatribes against her in this thread in the hope of winding people up, because it won't work. And images of eBooks are no substitute for an actual lab report. The documents in this case are available, so come on, where is it?

 

[Vixen]

Yes; this. During that era, there were school conferences about the horrors of listening to heavy metal music. Parents were given lists of things to look for, and it wasn't unusual for kids to have their rooms searched for things like black clothing, stuff related to Dungeons and Dragons, tarot cards and Ouija boards...all signs of a baby sacrificing, mass murdering, virgin killing, blood drinking Satan worshipper cleverly disguised as an ordinary child.

Some kids started believing they really were "possessed" or "evil" because they simply couldn't deny loving Iron Maiden and Black Sabbath -and of course, those band names played right into the fears. So, of course, they lived down to the expectations, and proceeded to find trouble simply because they believed it was their destiny. Others saw making claims of terrible deeds as a way of scoring points with these mysterious, unnamed rulers of the world. It wasn't entirely unusual for a kid to come to school claiming he had burnt down a building or cut the throat of a virgin -bald lies that gained all kinds of attention and created a spooky reputation no one else wanted to challenge.

Parents who had never actually listened to Twisted Sister, and had no clue what they sounded like, were full of lore about "backward masking" and "hypnotic subliminal messages". Gospel preachers on television never ran out of things to say about the way Satan had infiltrated the school and was forever ruining the eternal souls of those who listened to lyrics rife with sex and violence...even if it wasn't nearly as raunchy as the stuff of prime time TV.

Echols suffered from severe mental illness from an early age. His records show that he believed himself as being transformed into a demon. He was and still is obsessed by demonology. Many witnesses from his school avoided having anything to do with him as he deliberately tried to creep them out by staring at them.

The satanic part is indeed a core part of Echols self-identity.

Blaming it on his Christian community is absurd as half the school he went to enjoyed that type of music.

I saw some guy in near the arctic circle wearing an Iron Maiden jacket.

It is mainstream, I promise you. Cops have better things to do than go after kids with mullets playing 'And Justice For All' .

You are kidding me, right?

 

[Vixen]

Where is the actual evidence of the existence of this "urine"? So far, none has been provided.

We know you don't like Amanda Knox, there's no point in posting wild diatribes against her in this thread in the hope of winding people up, because it won't work. And images of eBooks are no substitute for an actual lab report. The documents in this case are available, so come on, where is it?

Since you are snarky about my citations, I won't bother providing any more.

You seek out your own lab report.

 

[John Jones]

Glitchell confirms that Steve Jones would not have known as the information had not been released as of that time.

Glitchell was not given that information until 16 May, by phone, some six days after Echols bragged of his knowledge of it.
See citation attached.

Echols' knowledge of what, exactly?

 

[Strawberry]

Since you are snarky about my citations, I won't bother providing any more.

You seek out your own lab report.

Here's the complete list of documents from the Arkansas crime lab relating to this case. Find us even one that states there was urine in the boys stomachs or mouths.

http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/img/crimelab.html

 

[Vixen]

Another thing...it's entirely possible these boys may have somewhat believed some of the theology that was being tossed around, and may well have been willing to claim to be Satanists under the misguided idea that Satan would, in turn, protect them from harm.

It's twisted thinking, to be sure, but somewhat in alignment with the concepts being tossed around. If Satan controlled the musicians, the game publishers, the clothing manufacturers, the knife and goblet factories, the school textbook publishers...well, he probably controlled the police, too. So it would make sense he would make sure they all protected each other so the evil works would continue.

Nobody is claiming 'Satan did it'. What the police are saying is that a Satan obsessed person - Echols - inspired close friend Baldwin, who had been present at dog-slaying rituals with Echols managed to persuade some gullible teenagers, (Baldwin and Misskelley) to act as accessories in his misguided, but sincere beliefs, he could conjure up magic powers by killing a young child. This idea, comes directly from Aleister Crowley.

You don't have to believe in it to know that there are people who really do.

Echols was certified as a schizophrenic by one mental hospital he was sectioned in.

 

[DragonLady]

The satanic part is indeed a core part of Echols self-identity.

Okay.

So what?

Does it make a difference, somehow, if he worshipped Satan or Xarath the Spider King or Bugs Bunny?

 

[Rolfe]

Since you are snarky about my citations, I won't bother providing any more.

You seek out your own lab report.

I accept your admission that there is no such lab report. Please refrain from claiming there was urine in the stomachs in future.

 

[Vixen]

Echols did not brag of his knowledge of it, and the only citation I need to see is the transcript of Echols May 10th police interview, not your stupid e book. Here's what actually happened in the May 10th interview...

DAMIEN STATED THAT STEVE JONES FROM THE JUVENILE AUTHORITY HAD BEEN BY TO SEE HIM A DAY OR TWO BEFORE AND THAT STEVE HAD TOLD HIM ABOUT HOW THE BOYS TESTICLES HAD BEEN CUT OFF AND THAT SOMEONE HAD URINATED IN THEIR MOUTHS. HE STATED THAT STEVE STATED THAT COULD HAVE BEEN THE REASON THAT THE BODIES WERE PLACED IN THE WATER SO THAT THE URINE COULD HAVE BEEN WASHED OUT.

http://callahan.mysite.com/wm3/dwe.html

There's no question but that Damien was telling the truth about the contents of his conversation with Steve Jones either - Lt Sudbury was present at both Jones's conversation with Damien on May 7th, and the police interview on May 10th/ If Damien had lied about being told that by Jones, Sudbury would have said something - especially if there was urine in the boys stomachs. For a suspect to know something like that and lie about how they know would be incriminating evidence that would form part of the case for the prosecution.

In The Commercial Appeal, a front page article, the day after the bodies had been found, was run saying that all three boys had been sexually mutilated by a sharp instrument. Arkansas police knew that was incorrect, but let it stand.

Thus, when Echols let police know on 10 May that 'at least one of the boys was cut up more than the others', he was exhibiting insider knowledge. It is an incontrovertible fact that the knowledge of Chris Byers' injuries was not publicly known as of that date. Sure, there were generic reports of 'mutilation'.

It was his answers in the interview, which included knwoing of the urine and the fact of one boy being particularly mutilated, that made Echols a suspect as of that date, not his Metallica t-shirt.

 

[DragonLady]

who had been present at dog-slaying rituals

Evidence?

Where did they get the dogs? Did anyone find any dead dogs? Anyone claiming they found dog blood (or any blood) on their clothing, etc? Any weapons used to slay dogs? Any trips to the ER for dog bites? Any history of rabies inoculation?

Ya know, killing a dog -just one dog- is a messy, nasty business, and it leaves evidence. To kill more than one is to get a whole bunch of people very interested, very quickly.

 

[Strawberry]

In The Commercial Appeal, a front page article was run saying that all three boys had been sexually mutilated by a sharp instrument. Arkansas police knew that was incorrect, but let it stand.

Thus, when Echols let police know on 10 May that 'at least one of the boys was cut up more than the others', he was exhibiting insider knowledge. It is an incontrovertible fact that the knowledge of Chris Byers' injuries was not publicly known as of that date. Sure, there were generic reports of 'mutilation'.

It was his answers in the interview, which included knwoing of the urine and the fact of one boy being particularly mutilated, that made Echols a suspect as of that date, not his Metallica t-shirt.

What urine? I've given you a link to all of crime lab reports, go and find one that shows that there was urine present in the boys stomachs, then we can discuss it as evidence of guilt.

Damien was a suspect before that interview took place anyway, that's why Jones and Sudbury visited him on May 7th.

 

[Vixen]

Okay.

So what?

Does it make a difference, somehow, if he worshipped Satan or Xarath the Spider King or Bugs Bunny?

It provides the motive to the crime.