Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Tolls]

As for what would be left...we've been pulling up bits and pieces of what existed in Doggerland for over 100 years. And that was an area with essentially nomadic hunters.

A global civilisation would be slightly more obvious.

 

[Hans]

See posts #2, 3 and 4. But next time I will unearth suitable visual material, if that is the "done thing".

I was kidding!

 

[Hans]

As for what would be left...we've been pulling up bits and pieces of what existed in Doggerland for over 100 years. And that was an area with essentially nomadic hunters.

A global civilisation would be slightly more obvious.

Absolutely and we have wooden javelins from 400,000 years ago.

http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=2981

Most stuff gets destroyed or lost - but enough survives to say, "we were here".

 

[Craig B]

I was kidding!

I know, but I liked the picture you included in your post.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

Where do you think the water ended up?

The water evaporated. That's how salt tables rose, through over irrigation, in the early fertile crescent.

This was not the case with Göbekli Tepe as there was no irrigation there, when it was built by hunter gatherers.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

It was more than one event, from what I understand....

Can you tell us exactly when your magical flood or floods were?

 

[King of the Americas]

As for what would be left...we've been pulling up bits and pieces of what existed in Doggerland for over 100 years. And that was an area with essentially nomadic hunters.

A global civilisation would be slightly more obvious.

You mean like leaving huge stone pyramid structures on every continent?

 

[King of the Americas]

Absolutely and we have wooden javelins from 400,000 years ago.

http://www.historyofinformation.com/expanded.php?id=2981

Most stuff gets destroyed or lost - but enough survives to say, "we were here".

Yeah, the Great Pyramid or the ruins of Puma Punku ARE those remnants.

 

[Hans]

Yeah, the Great Pyramid or the ruins of Puma Punku ARE those remnants.

Which are associated with the people who lived there and left clear indications of their existence - and not imaginary civilizations that leave no trace.

Yes amazing isn't it that wooden javelins can survive 400,000 years but absolutely nothing that can be found which can be associated to your imaginary civilization? Startling huh....chuckle. So where is all that stuff then?

 

[Hans]

You mean like leaving huge stone pyramid structures on every continent?

.....which were made by the folks there not invisible people you believe in.

Strange those invisible people left no traces. Oh by the way "every continent".....Australia???

 

[Craig B]

You mean like leaving huge stone pyramid structures on every continent?

They left arrowheads and fish hooks and bead earrings and numerous other delicate articles, none of which show any signs of advanced technology. As noted before, pyramids show no sign of it either. We know from history that the Parthenon, and mediaeval cathedrals, could be built with simple tools.

The pyramids of Egypt and Mesopotamia and Mesoamerica were much simpler in concept and execution than the Parthenon. They were merely bigger.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

You mean like leaving huge stone pyramid structures on every continent?

Yeah, the Great Pyramid or the ruins of Puma Punku ARE those remnants.

Are you saying that the Egyptian Pyramids and Puma Punku were built by the same global civilisation? Do you have any evidence that this is the case, given that several thousand years separate the two? Can you also provide examples of huge stone pyramids on the other 5 continents, that were also built by your alleged lost civilisation?

 

[Craig B]

Are you saying that the Egyptian Pyramids and Puma Punku were built by the same global civilisation? Do you have any evidence that this is the case, given that several thousand years separate the two? Can you also provide examples of huge stone pyramids on the other 5 continents, that were also built by your alleged lost civilisation?

Notice how the Egyptians never taught the Puma Punkans to write, and in return were never taught how to record information on knotted strings.

The idea that all these civilisations were the same, or even contemporary, is absurd. Puma Punku was contemporary, not with the Great Pyramid, but with the Church of the Holy Wisdom built by Justinian in Constantinople. And he never taught the Pumapunkans the alphabet, or ironworking, did he?

 

[King of the Americas]

Which are associated with the people who lived there and left clear indications of their existence - and not imaginary civilizations that leave no trace.

Yes amazing isn't it that wooden javelins can survive 400,000 years but absolutely nothing that can be found which can be associated to your imaginary civilization? Startling huh....chuckle. So where is all that stuff then?

Associated with???

I am associated with my grandparents' house, but I didn't build it. It bares my name, and I am sure even my likeness therein, but it is not mine.

I repeat Puma Punku was not formed using bronze, copper, or stone chisels and knotted string by a people with no written language. Although I have not worked with diorite, I can "expertly" say, neither copper or bronze, and not or even diorite or flint chisels could be responsible for the ruins there.

Nothing? Except these transcontinental stone and other pyramid ruins...??

 

[King of the Americas]

Are you saying that the Egyptian Pyramids and Puma Punku were built by the same global civilisation? Do you have any evidence that this is the case, given that several thousand years separate the two? Can you also provide examples of huge stone pyramids on the other 5 continents, that were also built by your alleged lost civilisation?

No.

I am saying that there was global connection, trade, and knowledge between several civilizations, not unlike today.

Pyramids and celestial aligned large stone structures appear around the world.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

No.

I am saying that there was global connection, trade, and knowledge between several civilizations, not unlike today.

Pyramids and celestial aligned large stone structures appear around the world.

Because a pile of rocks is the easiest shape for a huge building. And because everyone everywhere could see the night sky.


Any evidence for this global trade? Like remnants of goods, people or technology that could only have ended up on that continent by trade? Or transcontinental cultural influences? Shared language? Records or even stories of trade with other continents? Anything?
Nope, just that they all built structures that were wider at the base than at the top. Millennia apart from each other...

 

[Tolls]

So, trying to tie this together, we have floods (even if they happened all at once, for ~400 foot increase) apparently destroying a civilisation that existed, not just on the then coastline, but also waaaay inland, and some 13,000 feet up (pre flooding Puma Punku), also waaay inland and over 3000 feet up (pre flooding Gobekli Tepe)...

The only one that comes even close is the Great Pyramids at Giza, which would have been some 180m above the then sea level. But still above the current level.

So how in hell did this flood destroy all the evidence of this ancient civilisation? As we keep asking, where is all the other junk that would be expected at these sites? The flood cannot have washed them away as the flooding we have evidence for never, ever, reached them.

 

[Pixel42]

Because a pile of rocks is the easiest shape for a huge building.

If you don't know how to make arches, flying buttresses etc and you want to build something big and impressive with the minimum amount of rock then a pyramid is pretty much your only option.

 

[Craig B]

Associated with???

I am associated with my grandparents' house, but I didn't build it. It bares my name, and I am sure even my likeness therein, but it is not mine.

I repeat Puma Punku was not formed using bronze, copper, or stone chisels and knotted string by a people with no written language. Although I have not worked with diorite, I can "expertly" say, neither copper or bronze, and not or even diorite or flint chisels could be responsible for the ruins there.

Nothing? Except these transcontinental stone and other pyramid ruins...??

Why do you keep stating "stone chisels", and "flint chisels"? The methods suggested have included wooden wedges, and stone mauls to make depressions in surfaces then smoothed down with flat stones and abrasive sand. Has anyone insisted on "stone chisels"?

I have denied copper chisels before. Now I deny flint chisels too. What is the date of Puma Punku, and what is your evidence? As a self proclaimed "expert" you no doubt have evidence for this date.

ETA Here's an example of the "expertise" (and fund raising) currently being brought to bear on these mysteries by unconventional thinkers.

 

[King of the Americas]

.....which were made by the folks there not invisible people you believe in.

Strange those invisible people left no traces. Oh by the way "every continent".....Australia???

Puma Punku was NOT created using chisels...by a people with no written language, period. To say so is to ignore general stone working principles and applications. Copper, bronze, and stone chisels do not 'cut' square lines and descending squares into diorite. The precision required to build multiple interlocking is not possible with a very different process that carving...

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"Where are the artifacts?"

In the hands of treasure hoarders. Archeologists are not a new invention. People have been digging and collecting for personal gain and enrichment for as long as there have been people here. We don't 'see' it because it is in private collections, OR they have been misattributed to their proper makers, like so many ruins.