The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 26

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Thanks for the correction.

Also, because Italy is one of those countries where the prosecution is allowed to appeal a provisional acquittal, in cases such as murder where there is no statute of limitations, the "single" trial may go on as long as the accused is alive, as the appeal courts including the CSC quash each judgment in turn.

But to correct your correction, the CSC does not need to finalize a judgment if it is not appealed, in accordance with Italian law, to it. For example, the Boninsegna court acquittal of Amanda Knox on the charge of calunnia against the police and Mignini became final when the prosecution did not appeal within the legally authorized time limit for appeals.

The prosecution cannot appeal an acquittal pronounced by the CSC, nor can it appeal a (provisional) acquittal from a lower court once the legally authorized time limit for appeals has passed.

Regardless, the entire process is excessive and hardly beneficial to the defendant, which is what Vixen originally claimed. It would be one thing to argue multiple 'sub-trials' benefit the defendant if an acquittal anywhere along the line was definitive, but that's not the case. A 'not guilty' verdict by the Trial or Appellate courts means nothing to the defendant if the prosecution is set to appeal up to Cassation.

I would also like to ask WHY have a trial court if the prosecution can appeal and the Appellate Court will try the case de novo (as Hellmann correctly did). In that case the trial court's conclusions would seem irrelevant and an utter waste of time.
 
As it is impossible to prove a negative, it will be much easier for you to cite any serious crime (not fraud or treason*) that Hellmann ever presided over as a Supreme Court judge (*like-for-like).

We are all sitting at our 'puters with bated breath, in anticipation of your citation/s.

No, Vixen, I'm not going to do your homework for you. You claim something, you provide the evidence. This is how it works. (Remember Chieffi's if you claim contamination you are the one to prove that it happened?)
And btw, I never claimed that there are cases judge "Hellmann presided over as a Supreme Court judge", please stop putting words into my mouth...
So we take it, 'Hellmann has never presided over a murder case appeal in the Supreme Court.'

Thank you.
"We"!?

What does this even mean? Neither did Nencini nor Massei do that either......
Erratum: that should have read 'Appeal Court'
So we take it you can't provide any evidence that Hellmann was "an inexperienced-in-serious-crime but well-meaning Judge."
So back to the original question we are, aren't we? :(
So after two days of you and Stacyhs frantically searching for a citation, there are none.
Well, and you aren't closer to answer the original question, as Stacyhs highlighted...

The main reason his report was spiked was because he treated the evidence in a piecemeal fashion.
Take a closer look at Art. 192.2 c.p., Hellmann has the law on his side.

Chieffi used the saying “quae singula non probant, simul unita probant” as an excuse to go onto a fact finding mission himself (not allowed) to follow Galati's re-invention of logic and to get Art. 606 (e) c.p.p. into play...

For example, imagine you have someone accused of embezzlement. There are ten instances of his transferring funds from his employers (let's say a trader in a bank) account into his own.

Hellmann would have looked at each occasion one by one dimissing each in turn as 'just a mistake'.

A judge with experience in serious crime, such as murder, would not make such an elementary error.

He or she would look at whole overview of the ten instances of the funds 'accidentally' ending up in the trader's account and spot a pattern.
Nice example, but still misleading.
The imaginary Hellmann in your example would have found - by closer looking at the facts - that nine of the ten instances were actually the employee's monthly wages he transfered to his own account as it was part of his job, and that the 10th transaction was a mistake that had been corrected a day or two later...
Unfortunately the "Usage" parts of the transaction documents had been blacked out by the prosecution and the re-transfer was missing from the court documents...
I'd question a conviction based on this "whole overview"... I guess you won't :(
No wonder Hellmann was shuffled out of his job immediately after his embarrassing performance.
Immediately, not so, since he was still the president of the labour section in the "Calendario giudiziario for 2012"... When it comes to the "embarrassing performance" I guess that is only how you view it.
Last time I looked judge Hellmann chose to retire (an option whe you are 67) for the reasons judge Edoardo Mori laid out here...
 
No wonder Hellmann was shuffled out of his job immediately after his embarrassing performance.
Last time I looked judge Hellmann chose to retire (an option whe you are 67) for the reasons judge Edoardo Mori laid out here...
Vixen is in favour of a judicial system where a judge can be removed for issuing a verdict. Yet in the Italian system, Vixen forgot to slag Zanetti and the popular judges.
 
....


Take a closer look at Art. 192.2 c.p., Hellmann has the law on his side.

Chieffi used the saying “quae singula non probant, simul unita probant” as an excuse to go onto a fact finding mission himself (not allowed) to follow Galati's re-invention of logic and to get Art. 606 (e) c.p.p. into play...


....

Here is the text in Italian of CPP Article 192*:

Art. 192 - Valutazione della prova
1. Il giudice valuta la prova dando conto nella motivazione dei risultati acquisiti e dei criteri adottati.
2. L'esistenza di un fatto non può essere desunta da indizi a meno che questi siano gravi, precisi e concordanti.
3. Le dichiarazioni rese dal coimputato del medesimo reato o da persona imputata in un procedimento connesso a norma dell'articolo 12 sono valutate unitamente agli altri elementi di prova che ne confermano l'attendibilità.
4. La disposizione del comma 3 si applica anche alle dichiarazioni rese da persona imputata di un reato collegato a quello per cui si procede, nel caso previsto dall'articolo 371 comma 2 lettera b).

Translation by Google:

Art. 192 - Evaluation of evidence {proof}
1. The judge shall evaluate the evidence by taking into account the justification for the results obtained and the criteria adopted.
2. The existence of a fact can not be inferred from clues{circumstantial evidence} unless these are serious, precise and concordant {not contradictory}.
3. Declarations made by the convicted person of the same offense or by a person charged with a proceeding pursuant to Article 12 shall be assessed together with the other evidence confirming their reliance.
4. The provision of paragraph 3 shall also apply to declarations made by an accused person of an offense related to the one for which it is proceeded, in the case provided for in Article 371, paragraph 2, letter b).

Violation of CPP 192.2 by the Massei court, Chieffi CSC panel, and Nencini court led to arbitrary reasoning in their judgments as clearly observable in their respective motivation reports. ECHR case law states that arbitrary reasoning in a court judgment, if it leads to conviction or other disadvantage to an accused, is an infringement of Convention rights under Article 6.

*Source: http://www.leggeonline.info/leggi/procedurapenale/art192/valutazione_della_prova/
 
Maybe Nick van der Leek can get revenge against Peter Quennell by reversing course and doing a cut-and-paste book about the hater-PR saga begun at places like TJMK and the PMFs. If he needs some help with the cut-and-paste, there's a whole thread on IIP devoted to PMF's civil war in 2011 which resulted in TWO PMFs. (One now closed!)

There'd be lots of opportunities for cut-and-paste from the 26 Continuations on this forum. There's enough material for 26 books! Maybe someone from this thread can volunteer to proof read it for him!
 
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Vixen, what do you think PQ is referring to when he says there may be some plagiarism in NvdL's book? Do you think PQ is correct in not recommending the book?
 
Vixen, what do you think PQ is referring to when he says there may be some plagiarism in NvdL's book? Do you think PQ is correct in not recommending the book?

A decade ago, when Mignini and the rest all-but kidnapped a 24 year-old Italian male and a 20 year old American woman from the streets of Perugia....

.... did anyone think that we'd now be 2 1/2 years past a judicial exoneration arguing about who is more correct:

Peter Quennell, or Nick van der leek, both of whom are on the wrong side of history.

And to underline how much they've strayed from the right side of history, the lone guilter willing to post her stuff here is now forced to choose.

You can't make up this stuff.
 
Meanwhile, back to reality.....

The innocenceproject.org has just backed three exonerations in the States.

This week.

The last one was George Perrot who is now free after 30 years, and with the FBI admitting to its forensic errors.
 
A decade ago, when Mignini and the rest all-but kidnapped a 24 year-old Italian male and a 20 year old American woman from the streets of Perugia....

.... did anyone think that we'd now be 2 1/2 years past a judicial exoneration arguing about who is more correct:

Peter Quennell, or Nick van der leek, both of whom are on the wrong side of history.

And to underline how much they've strayed from the right side of history, the lone guilter willing to post her stuff here is now forced to choose.

You can't make up this stuff.

Pete or Nick? Which one is more absurd? Tough choice.
 
Maybe Nick van der Leek can get revenge against Peter Quennell by reversing course and doing a cut-and-paste book about the hater-PR saga begun at places like TJMK and the PMFs. If he needs some help with the cut-and-paste, there's a whole thread on IIP devoted to PMF's civil war in 2011 which resulted in TWO PMFs. (One now closed!)

There'd be lots of opportunities for cut-and-paste from the 26 Continuations on this forum. There's enough material for 26 books! Maybe someone from this thread can volunteer to proof read it for him!

You are STILL rubber-necking, holding up the traffic.


Move on. There is nothing to see.
 
Vixen, what do you think PQ is referring to when he says there may be some plagiarism in NvdL's book? Do you think PQ is correct in not recommending the book?

As he himself says he hasn't read the book, nor been offered it for 'peer review', I guess he has an uncanny knack of sensing 'plagiarism' by osmosis.

It's his prerogative whether he recommends a book or not. Why would you tell the world you are not recommending it.

I can think of literally thousands of books I would not recommend.

But at least I've read them.
 
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All this of course is to make an assumption the Hellman-Zanetti court was preordained to be above board and simply headed by an inexperienced-in-serious-crime but well-meaning Judge. In that context, the authors hold a fair opinion.

As it is impossible to prove a negative, it will be much easier for you to cite any serious crime (not fraud or treason*) that Hellmann ever presided over as a Supreme Court judge (*like-for-like).We are all sitting at our 'puters with bated breath, in anticipation of your citation/s.

>

No, Vixen, I'm not going to do your homework for you. You claim something, you provide the evidence. This is how it works. (Remember Chieffi's if you claim contamination you are the one to prove that it happened?)
And btw, I never claimed that there are cases judge "Hellmann presided over as a Supreme Court judge", please stop putting words into my mouth...If that is all you have...
<shrug>

Would a murder case suffice for a "serious crime"? Hellmann was the second judge in this appellate court murder case . And before Vixen accuses me of googling like mad to find it, it was sent to me by another PIP who has been following this discussion but who chooses not to post.

Quasi otto anni di galera per Massimo Pisano, marito di Cinzia Bruno, assassinata il 4 agosto 1993 dalla di lui amante, Silvana Agresta.
Un altro clamoroso errore giudiziario originato da un’inchiesta della procura di Roma, giunta troppo presto a conclusioni troppo semplici.
Un errore avallato da tre gradi di giudizio a cui solo un coraggioso, quanto impeccabile e minuzioso processo di revisione della corte d’Appello di Perugia (Presidente: Gabriele Lino VERRINA, consiglieri Claudio PRATILLO HELLMANN e Angelo DI SALVO, relatore) ha saputo rimediare.

Almost eight years in prison for Massimo Pisano, husband of Cinzia Bruno, assassinated on August 4, 1993 by his lover, Silvana Agresta.
Another fierce judicial error stemming from a prosecutor's inquiry into Rome, which came too soon to too simple conclusions.
A mistake endorsed by three degrees of judgment to which only a brave, as impeccable and minute review process of the Appellate Court in Perugia (President: Gabriele Lino VERRINA, advisers Claudio PRATILLO HELLMANN and Angelo DI SALVO, rapporteur) has been able to remedy.
http://www.misteriditalia.it/altri-misteri/cinzia-bruno/
 
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As he himself says he hasn't read the book, nor been offered it for 'peer review', I guess he has an uncanny knack of sensing 'plagiarism' by osmosis.

It's his prerogative whether he recommends a book or not. Why would you tell the world you are not recommending it.

I can think of literally thousands of books I would not recommend.

But at least I've read them.

If he says there may be plagiarism then someone who has read the book must have told him so. He didn't come up with that out of thin air.

Of course it's his prerogative but has he failed to recommend any other books on this case by Nickie?

You'd like us to move on for obvious reasons. But we don't always get what we want.
 
As he himself says he hasn't read the book, nor been offered it for 'peer review', I guess he has an uncanny knack of sensing 'plagiarism' by osmosis.

It's his prerogative whether he recommends a book or not. Why would you tell the world you are not recommending it.

I can think of literally thousands of books I would not recommend.

But at least I've read them.

LOL! Fresh from telling another poster to "move on", Vixen levels a broadside at Peter Quennell!

Hoots!!!!
 
Would a murder case suffice for a "serious crime"? Hellmann was the second judge in this appellate court murder case before becoming a Supreme Court judge. And before Vixen accuses me of googling like mad to find it, it was sent to me by another PIP who has been following this discussion but who chooses not to post.

http://www.misteriditalia.it/altri-misteri/cinzia-bruno/

Another guilter talking point (lie?) bites the dust.
 
If he says there may be plagiarism then someone who has read the book must have told him so. He didn't come up with that out of thin air.

Of course it's his prerogative but has he failed to recommend any other books on this case by Nickie?

You'd like us to move on for obvious reasons. But we don't always get what we want.

Stacyhs, the lady with the amazing ability to know what others are thinking. Of course, that must be it.

I don't recall his ever recommending War and Peace or even The Little House on the Prairie for that matter.

What can it all mean?
 
Noooooo! Homer Simpson has just got out of his car to get a better look. Vultures are circling overhead...

Divert divert divert.....

Level broadside at Quennell.....

Divert divert.

Make up your mind! You were briefly a vulture yourself!
 
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