Split Thread Scorpion's Spiritualism

[Darat]

I do not think the divine plan concerns itself with small details, it is about the general evolution of mankind, and according to the spirit world that plan is proceeding to its ultimate conclusion. Which will be that all the souls of the family of mankind will ultimately reach enlightenment.




Evil acts can simply be seen as mistakes born of ignorance. The unevolved can be very cruel. Even children can be cruel. But personal experience of hurtful things, teaches us to be more merciful. This may carry on over many incarnations, as according to the spirit world every action has a reaction, and every action and its reaction must be accounted for. That being the case someone like Hitler is a soul to be pitied. He has much suffering ahead of him over unknown numbers of incarnations.

Small details such as providing the winning lottery numbers to someone....

 

[Darat]

I do not think the divine plan concerns itself with small details, it is about the general evolution of mankind, and according to the spirit world that plan is proceeding to its ultimate conclusion. Which will be that all the souls of the family of mankind will ultimately reach enlightenment.




Evil acts can simply be seen as mistakes born of ignorance. The unevolved can be very cruel. Even children can be cruel. But personal experience of hurtful things, teaches us to be more merciful. This may carry on over many incarnations, as according to the spirit world every action has a reaction, and every action and its reaction must be accounted for. That being the case someone like Hitler is a soul to be pitied. He has much suffering ahead of him over unknown numbers of incarnations.

Why would Hitler be in for punishment after he provided "personal experience of hurtful things" to millions of people? Surely that was - in how you claim that the spirit world works - doing a great good? In other words in your beliefs Hitler might have been an highly evolved soul trying to help millions of others.

The philosophy you say underlies spiritualism is a horrendous, uncaring, merciless teaching.

 

[Darat]

I do not know what happens to zygotes that die. I have never asked that question of a spirit guide so how can I know. I assume the spirit body of a baby is fully developed even though the physical body is still unformed. But I don't know.

And when does this start from, the moment if conception?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

But you said ^:




We are talking about zygotes here. Growing up in the spirit world but being segregated into lots that have the same degree of spiritual evolution?

You speak with such authority about these matters but when challenged with a question that shows some thought absurd ...... you haven't asked some spirit authority about it?

Yeah, how can they 'grow up in the spirit world' if they can only develop in the physical world?

It's almost as if you've combined the lies of psychic #1 trying to comfort grieving (would-be) parents with the lies of psychic #2 pontificating on the Natural Order, without noticing the incompatibility of their claims.

 

[Scorpion]

Why would Hitler be in for punishment after he provided "personal experience of hurtful things" to millions of people? Surely that was - in how you claim that the spirit world works - doing a great good? In other words in your beliefs Hitler might have been an highly evolved soul trying to help millions of others.

Like I said, the spirits say every action and its reaction must be accounted for.
Hitler was personally responsible for much of the suffering of the war, and that does not make him a benefactor even if the war was part of humanity's collective karma.

 

[Scorpion]

Yeah, how can they 'grow up in the spirit world' if they can only develop in the physical world?

It's almost as if you've combined the lies of psychic #1 trying to comfort grieving (would-be) parents with the lies of psychic #2 pontificating on the Natural Order, without noticing the incompatibility of their claims.

They grow up until maturity, but they cannot advance much in the spirit world.
To do that they have to seek another incarnation.

I had a message from a brother that died in the war as a baby and the medium said, "I have got your brother here, he looks exactly like you"
Since I was in my early twenty's at the time its clear he grew up from a baby.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

Yes, the spirit can only evolve and settle karma in the physical world. Because there is no pressure in the spirit. You go to a plane of existence that suits your stage of spiritual evolution, and everyone there is at the same level. So there is no conflict like on earth. Spirits are segregated, unlike the earth where souls at all different levels of development are thrown together.

So, in this level of the spirit world where all the petty undeveloped predatory selfish spirits go there isn't any conflict, because they are segregated from more developed spirits? Doesn't make sense.
Also, who organises this cosmic segregation?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

edit: never mind

 

[Scorpion]

And when does this start from, the moment if conception?

The medium Ursula Roberts was in a trance at the spiritualist association, and she gave a lecture in which she said, Incarnation begins at conception, the spirit descends into the physical at that time. But she did not elaborate so I have no further clear information on what happens to abortions.

 

[Scorpion]

So, in this level of the spirit world where all the petty undeveloped predatory selfish spirits go there isn't any conflict, because they are segregated from more developed spirits? Doesn't make sense.
Also, who organises this cosmic segregation?

The spirit world is composed of some kind of higher energy and there are many different levels. The higher planes are light and a lower spirit cannot enter them because they could not stand the brilliant light. There are darker, lower planes where the unevolved go.

There are angels who administrate the divine plan from on high. They never incarnate, and they do not have wings. They travel by though power.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Evil acts can simply be seen as mistakes born of ignorance. The unevolved can be very cruel. Even children can be cruel. But personal experience of hurtful things, teaches us to be more merciful. This may carry on over many incarnations, as according to the spirit world every action has a reaction, and every action and its reaction must be accounted for. That being the case someone like Hitler is a soul to be pitied. He has much suffering ahead of him over unknown numbers of incarnations.

Then, ultimately, evil acts are not just good, but necessary. Without experiencing both committing evil acts and having evil acts committed on you people's spirits couldn't evolve, and since the evolution of people's spirits is God's divine plan, then evil acts must be not just good and necessary but divine.

 

[Scorpion]

Then, ultimately, evil acts are not just good, but necessary. Without experiencing both committing evil acts and having evil acts committed on you people's spirits couldn't evolve, and since the evolution of people's spirits is God's divine plan, then evil acts must be not just good and necessary but divine.

Evil cannot happen without the permission of the divine mind. We are allowed to learn the hard way. Some say it is the journey of life which is the greatest part of our adventure.

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Evil is good. Awesome. Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

I do not think the divine plan concerns itself with small details, it is about the general evolution of mankind, and according to the spirit world that plan is proceeding to its ultimate conclusion. Which will be that all the souls of the family of mankind will ultimately reach enlightenment.




Evil acts can simply be seen as mistakes born of ignorance. The unevolved can be very cruel. Even children can be cruel. But personal experience of hurtful things, teaches us to be more merciful. This may carry on over many incarnations, as according to the spirit world every action has a reaction, and every action and its reaction must be accounted for. That being the case someone like Hitler is a soul to be pitied. He has much suffering ahead of him over unknown numbers of incarnations.

By that reasoning, all of the victims of the holocaust had it coming for being jerks in a previous life.
For all we know every man, woman and child that was herded into the gas chambers was some kind of Hitler in a previous life.

Which raises the question: What reason do we have to improve people's lot in life, or even just help them, if we believe they deserve everything bad that happens to them?

 

[Myriad]

Yes it's a different part of ourselves that reincarnates. It does not remember past incarnations, but it carries with it the collective spiritual evolutionary status of past lives. We are more than we were before, and we are likely to manifest character that is the sum of our past lives.

We may have qualities like being stronger, wiser, more compassionate beings because of previous lives. A spirit guide speaking through a trance medium in a lecture I attended said that Mozart had been a musician in nine previous lives before he was born Mozart the prodigy. So we carry over what we have learned in past lives as latent characteristics of the new life.

Mozart (W.A.) was the son of an avid and successful musician and composer (by the standards of the time; music was a social pursuit with few opportunities for full-time professionals.) Mozart Senior was also a teacher, and the author of a well-received music instruction book, who intensively trained his son in music from his earliest childhood, foregoing further advancement in his own music career to do so.

The "born Mozart the prodigy" narrative seems to be leaving that part out. I wonder why?

Of course, you might claim that naturally the spirits would choose a music-rich learning environment for the next incarnation of a spirit who had already been a musician in nine previous lives. That way, "nature" (genetics), "nurture" (the music-rich learning environment young Mozart grew up in), and "spiritual evolutionary status" would all align toward creating a prodigy. That makes sense, right?

Actually, no, in the context of the rest of your narrative, it doesn't. If your view of reincarnation were situated within a traditionally polytheistic milieu where gods and invisible spirits meddle around with human affairs in order to create prodigies (or more traditionally, great heroes) from time to time, mostly for their own amusement, then sure, that would fit.

But if the purpose of reincarnation is for fledgling spirits to experience and learn lot of different things, why would a spirit who had already experienced nine lifetimes of being a musician need more of that kind of experience? Do we all need to experience being one of the greatest musical prodigies in the world in order to move on, and if so, how long is that going to take? (It's not as though the Mozart spirit had already perfected every other life skill. For instance, he at times lived beyond his means and suffered from debt and penury as a result, a common failing of a great many incarnated spirits then and now.)

I remember hearing that the soul retains perfect memories of all events of past lives, and if there were any doubt about a memory everything that ever happened leaves an energy trace that can be accessed in the higher realms of the spirit world. So we could review everything we have done and see it again. I do not know how memory is stored in the soul. It is not a question I ever though of asking a spirit guide when I used to attend lectures. What I learned comes from the 1970's and I have not been in contact with any church for twenty years. So I can't learn anything new.

Maybe I've had nine previous lifetimes of being people who, when told a tale of marvelous processes doing marvelous things, were inclined to ask, "how does that actually work?"

Perhaps that's why I've reached a state where, though no prodigy, I've gained some confidence concluding that when the answer appears to be "we cannot possibly know, because the process is entirely inherently invisible, intangible, ineffable, and untestable," the actual answer is that the process doesn't exist in the claimed form at all. We can't answer the question of what kind of glue sticks the stars to the firmament, not because the stars are too far away to tell or because the glue is made of abstract matter that only exists in a higher plane, but because there is no firmament.

In the case at hand, there is no evidence for intangible spirits having vast perfect memories, and there seems to be no way to acquire such evidence. There is lots of evidence for vast amounts of all kinds of information being stored in, and transferred from person to person by, material things in the world. One tiny example is the textbook on violin playing written by W. A. Mozart's father, which can still be examined and read today.

Therefore I think it's far more likely that we, like the Mozarts, evolve in our understanding not by storing up individual memories and experiences between one individual incarnation and another, but by adding to and receiving from the store of understanding in the world. (Which you and I are even doing right now with this dialog, so good for us!) It's not the solitary selfish individual process you describe, but a shared endeavor. The Buddha had at least one genuine revelation under the Bodhi Tree: our individual selves are largely illusion. If you accept that and ignore your ego's protests to the contrary, then you'll see that you will be (and already have been) reincarnated not serially but in parallel, as everyone else, and that the karmic accounts, such as they actually are, are kept in plain sight in this world, not in some mysterious invisible elsewhere.

 

[Scorpion]

Evil is good. Awesome. Thanks for clearing that up.

I did not exactly say that, Here is an except from the teachings of Silver Birch.

"Wars are not made by the great spirit, these at things that the children of matter have brought upon themselves by the misuse of free will There are lessons to be learned , but they can be learned without the brutalities and the hideous cruelties that the children of the great spirit perpetrate against each other. Do not mistake the doings of man for the acts of the great spirit".

 

[Myriad]

By that reasoning, all of the victims of the holocaust had it coming for being jerks in a previous life. For all we know every man, woman and child that was herded into the gas chambers was some kind of Hitler in a previous life.

Belief that the gas chamber victims deserved their fates as comeuppance for misdeeds in their past lives was not anyone's actual reason for herding them into those gas chambers. (That in no way detracts from the point you were making.)

On the other hand, the moral rationale of the caste system is directly linked to Hindu reincarnation beliefs that are overall very similar to Scorpion's. The historical and present-day mistreatment of lower-caste people is a direct result.

 

[Scorpion]

By that reasoning, all of the victims of the holocaust had it coming for being jerks in a previous life.
For all we know every man, woman and child that was herded into the gas chambers was some kind of Hitler in a previous life.

Which raises the question: What reason do we have to improve people's lot in life, or even just help them, if we believe they deserve everything bad that happens to them?

There may be many injustices taking place in the world, but the spirit world says that every injustice will be compensated in a future lifetime.
People who have been persecuted can do no better than forgive their enemies, as that firmly places the karma at the door of the perpetrators and frees the victims from hate and vengeance which would carry more karma.

The spirit world is strong on teaching we should help one another.

 

[Darat]

Like I said, the spirits say every action and its reaction must be accounted for.
Hitler was personally responsible for much of the suffering of the war, and that does not make him a benefactor even if the war was part of humanity's collective karma.

But according to you we have to suffer so we can evolve in some divine plan. That means people have to suffer, a truly evolved soul would know this.

If I said to you that I could help a million people evolve as per your spiritualism would it not be wrong for me to not help the million?

ETA: I see you have actually already answered me in the above post:

....snip...

The spirit world is strong on teaching we should help one another.

Since we evolve via suffering (according to you) then helping a million people suffer is being "strong on teaching we should help one another". Indeed I would hope if I believed as you do I would have the strength of character to accept that I should help others by making them suffer in the most horrendous ways possible, regardless of the cost to myself/soul.

 

[Scorpion]

But according to you we have to suffer so we can evolve in some divine plan. That means people have to suffer, a truly evolved soul would know this.

If I said to you that I could help a million people evolve as per your spiritualism would it not be wrong for me to not help the million?

Suffering can be the consequence of our making wrong actions. We do not have to do everything the hard way, it is our free choice.

The value of whatever we do is determined by our motives. But if you mean making people suffer to help them evolve, I doubt that defence would fly in a higher court.