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Merged What the quran really says.

@metacristi

Let all that you say be true, and without question much of it is, it nonetheless is not germane to my basic point
Now that is to require Muslims, on pain of being regarded as potential terrorists, to abjure the essence of their faith. This is ironic, for that is exactly how Catholics were abused before emancipation.​
and I cite Blackstone at that point. Catholicism was as ridiculous or as reasonable after 1829 as it was before, yet experience thereafter showed that Emancipation was not any danger to the state, catholic doctrines about papal supremacy notwithstanding.
 
I don't see how's that relevant to our discussion, you begin from the hidden assumption that Islam is more or less like Christianity or Judaism and after that use historical examples showing that Catholics or Jews (themselves attacked by some in England at the end of the 19th century) did not actually pose threats to the state. Not sound of course, even the idea of secular rights extended to the other religious denominations, in fact secularism itself, is a deeply Christian one (Islam lacking it in major sects).

People tend to downplay the good influences of Christianity* (direct or indirect) because it had also some very bad ones but this is not the killer blow they believe it is, if one lets aside the anticlericalism or cultural relativism biases one can easily see that the compared history of Christianity and islam shows that there wouldn't have been any Enlightenment had these two religions been so similar as some claim.


* its best 'asset' being that it was not as efficient to block the forces of progress along history, unlike Islam
 
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metacristi said:
I don't see how's that relevant to our discussion, you begin from the hidden assumption that Islam is more or less like Christianity or Judaism and after that use historical examples showing that Catholics or Jews (themselves attacked by some in England at the end of the 19th century) did not actually pose threats to the state. Not sound of course, even the idea of secular rights extended to the other religious denominations, in fact secularism itself, is a deeply Christian one (Islam lacking it in major sects).

People tend to downplay the good influences of Christianity* (direct or indirect) because it had also some very bad ones but this is not the killer blow they believe it is, if one lets aside the anticlericalism or cultural relativism biases one can easily see that the compared history of Christianity and islam shows that there wouldn't have been any Enlightenment had these two religions been so similar as some claim.
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This is pure apologetics: secularism is deeply Christian?

Nonsense. Christianity lost state power to enforce itself, while Islam retained it more effectively. Not only do I admit that, I hypothesise why that should be so, and call for it to be ended. But secularism is no more Christian than it is Islamic.

I have also said that it doesn't matter as far as our treatment of Muslims living among us is concerned. I indicate that anticatholicism resembled modern islamophobia, and history has demonstrated that it was superfluous. I said that was my prime point, and you have not addressed it, contenting yourself with another irrelevant course of Christian apologetics.

The danger arises when religion coalesces with the state. Apart from that, let Muslims or Roman Catholics believe what they want, because secularisation is not promoted either by invading countries or by demanding that believers abjure their religious affiliation before they will receive the same treatment enjoyed by their fellow citizens.
 
Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
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I simply want to know: whether such absolute words of God in the Quran are expression or basic & absolute truth or also of gross rationals?
 
Scorpion said:
DC

Muslims think the entire quran is the absolute words of God sent down as dictation throught the angel Gabriel. Therefore to show the quran says the sun orbits the earth would utterly destroy this, and leave muslims with no ground to stand on.
Click to expand...
Well in that case here's the text you're looking for.
18:83 They will ask thee of Dhul-Qarneyn. Say: I shall recite unto you a remembrance of him.
84 Lo! We made him strong in the land and gave unto every thing a road.
85 And he followed a road
86 Till, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a muddy spring, and found a people thereabout​
 
Kumar said:
Current. Say for example: covering distance by walking is our basic and by modern latest vehicle is gross/current. And covering by some older vehicle will be intermediate.
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Yeah, whatever. Let us just make words mean the same.

Elephant equals Laptop...
 
Belgian thought said:
Yeah, whatever. Let us just make words mean the same.

Elephant equals Laptop...
Click to expand...

Answer to my question should be just ABC of anything or of any Philosophy or of any science. Refer, one story given be me in other topic. We need to check what shall we be getting by our choice. Just walking, an old car, an intermediate car or a latest car. Everyone will have its own merits and demerits.
 
Craig B said:
This is pure apologetics: secularism is deeply Christian?

Nonsense. Christianity lost state power to enforce itself, while Islam retained it more effectively. Not only do I admit that, I hypothesise why that should be so, and call for it to be ended. But secularism is no more Christian than it is Islamic.

I have also said that it doesn't matter as far as our treatment of Muslims living among us is concerned. I indicate that anticatholicism resembled modern islamophobia, and history has demonstrated that it was superfluous. I said that was my prime point, and you have not addressed it, contenting yourself with another irrelevant course of Christian apologetics.

The danger arises when religion coalesces with the state. Apart from that, let Muslims or Roman Catholics believe what they want, because secularisation is not promoted either by invading countries or by demanding that believers abjure their religious affiliation before they will receive the same treatment enjoyed by their fellow citizens.
Click to expand...


What I meant is that Christianity leads much easier to modern secularism. I do not know what history you learnt or what you believe you have proved (nothing) but I think there is more than enough (secular) support for what I argued:

1. Christianity has (luckily, unlike islam) an inbuilt tendency to separate the state and religion (some cite often the cannon law as being the counterpart of sharia without understanding that it does not apply to the state and that since the beginning it was acknowledged that it was completely separate from state law)

2. After the wars of religions of the 17th century the (still deeply religious) Europeans realized that religious wars must leave place to reason and dialogue (even today not the case in Islam)

3. Without the important support inside main Christian sects the idea of secularism may have not succeeded (the same about abolitionism, feminism and so on, totally lacking in islam where the ulema can even now count on large masses to block progress). As historian Owen Chadwick puts it well:

Unbelief is not by any means the only cause of secularization. Thus, attempts by orthodox apologists to establish religion on a secure, rational basis often had an unintended secularizing effect, in that the criteria of rationality could oust the sanction of the supernatural. More important has been the effect of religious pluralism, the separation of Church and State, and the view that religion was essentially a private and personal matter, which often contributed to the secularization of key areas of public life such as education, even when most individuals retained strong religious commitments ….

..........................................................................................................................

Part of the development of Christian doctrine was forced upon the churches by advances in knowledge which in other directions made men’s minds more ‘secular’. And part of the development of Christian doctrine, during the nineteenth century, contributed to the growing 'secularity' of men’s minds.

............................................................................................................................

From the moment that European opinion decided for toleration, it decided for an eventual free market in opinion. A toleration of a minority is not the same as equality before the law between opinions. But in the circumstances of European history the one must lead into the other....Once concede equality to a distinctive group, you could not confine it to that group. You could not confine it to Protestants; nor, later, to Christians; nor, at last, to believers in God. A free market in some opinions became a free market in all opinions...Christian conscience was the force which began to make Europe 'secular;' that is, to allow many religions or no religion in a state, and repudiate any kind of pressure upon the man who rejected the accepted and inherited axioms of society...My conscience is my own.
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You do not seem even a bit aware of the fact that the Islamic world lacked (in main sects) the counterpart of Christian support for abolitionism, Reason, secularism etc and yet you build 'castles'. I'm sorry but they are built on sand. As I said there is large evidence that Islam leads to a very different worldview (at the average level in the population) and we should do better and acknowledge this openly. There is a reason why Islam lacks even now the counterpart of Liberal Christianity or Reform Judaism.

Finally as I already said, but you did not pay attention, 70 years of leaving muslims to 'clean their own rubbish' produced largely the contrary effect (whilst the same policy applied for example to Germany or Japan lead in the right direction), Islam returned toward the past in important ways and the best we have seen are half-sharia states, in spite of the recent 'revolutions' . You defend a severely degenerative 'research program', the burden of proof is entirely yours, and yet have the arrogance to take me to task for alleged 'islamophobia' and 'apologia for Christianity' (your hubris is in no way justified by facts, you think you are on a high moral ground but you aren't).

You can continue to believe as much as you wish that we can create a much better world via basically leaving Islam intact, I'm afraid evidence points in the other direction (poor muslims they do not deserve the horrible fate of a Quranic criticism on a par with existing Biblical criticism; this whilst having no problem with strong criticism in the case of the other Abrahamic religions). If someone is biased here that's definitely not me (History points out that we have to open Islam to a criticism on a par with that of Christianity and Judaism, even if this might produce the total collapse of this religion).
 
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Kumar said:
I simply want to know: whether such absolute words of God in the Quran are expression or basic & absolute truth or also of gross rationals?
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Any claimed words of some tinpot "god" in any trashed up "holy" book is a giant load of fecal matter and (provably for the big name ones) bits of stuff stolen from other cultures after they died out and then from each other. There are no absolute words of god as there is no god, just fake gods that people who waste time on it discuss as if they were real/part of reality.
 
On the bright side, crap like homeopathy is way worse as it and it's like can kill sick people directly by it's use by the frauds and slimes that push it!!!!!!!
 
Kumar said:
Answer to my question should be just ABC of anything or of any Philosophy or of any science. Refer, one story given be me in other topic. We need to check what shall we be getting by our choice. Just walking, an old car, an intermediate car or a latest car. Everyone will have its own merits and demerits.
Click to expand...

I see we are still having problems turning our claimed beliefs and related into clear and easily followed (by real English readers) text.
 
Kumar said:
Answer to my question should be just ABC of anything or of any Philosophy or of any science. Refer, one story given be me in other topic. We need to check what shall we be getting by our choice. Just walking, an old car, an intermediate car or a latest car. Everyone will have its own merits and demerits.
Click to expand...

Could you possibly, for example, convert the above paragraph into standard US English (or even clear British English) - as I can follow and interpret either of those.
 
metacristi said:
What I meant is that Christianity leads much easier to modern secularism. I do not know what history you learnt or what you believe you have proved (nothing) but I think there is more than enough (secular) support for what I argued:

1. Christianity has (luckily, unlike islam) an inbuilt tendency to separate the state and religion (some cite often the cannon law as being the counterpart of sharia without understanding that it does not apply to the state and that since the beginning it was acknowledged that it was completely separate from state law)

2. After the wars of religions of the 17th century the (still deeply religious) Europeans realized that religious wars must leave place to reason and dialogue (even today not the case in Islam)

3. Without the important support inside main Christian sects the idea of secularism may have not succeeded (the same about abolitionism, feminism and so on, totally lacking in islam where the ulema can even now count on large masses to block progress). As historian Owen Chadwick puts it well:




You do not seem even a bit aware of the fact that the Islamic world lacked (in main sects) the counterpart of Christian support for abolitionism, Reason, secularism etc and yet you build 'castles'. I'm sorry but they are built on sand. As I said there is large evidence that Islam leads to a very different worldview (at the average level in the population) and we should do better and acknowledge this openly. There is a reason why Islam lacks even now the counterpart of Liberal Christianity or Reform Judaism.

Finally as I already said, but you did not pay attention, 70 years of leaving muslims to 'clean their own rubbish' produced largely the contrary effect (whilst the same policy applied for example to Germany or Japan lead in the right direction), Islam returned toward the past in important ways and the best we have seen are half-sharia states, in spite of the recent 'revolutions' . You defend a severely degenerative 'research program', the burden of proof is entirely yours, and yet have the arrogance to take me to task for alleged 'islamophobia' and 'apologia for Christianity' (your hubris is in no way justified by facts, you think you are on a high moral ground but you aren't).

You can continue to believe as much as you wish that we can create a much better world via basically leaving Islam intact, I'm afraid evidence points in the other direction (poor muslims they do not deserve the horrible fate of a Quranic criticism on a par with existing Biblical criticism; this whilst having no problem with strong criticism in the case of the other Abrahamic religions). If someone is biased here that's definitely not me (History points out that we have to open Islam to a criticism on a par with that of Christianity and Judaism, even if this might produce the total collapse of this religion).
Click to expand...

As to your numbered para 1. I like cannon law as it is mostly physics and a bit of geometry. I find cannons admirable when they are used in slowing the advance of religion and thus useful!!!!!

I am also fine with the collapse of religion as a major sport in anyone's life.
 
Suddenly we find the age of a vehicle is one of the finer points in theology or philosophy?
 
Scorpion said:
The Quran says the earth was created before the heavens (sura 2.29)
The Quran says the earth is flat
The Quran says the sun orbits the earth (sura 21.33 sura 36.40)
The Quran says the sun rests and is reset every dawn (sura 36.38)
The Quran says the heaven and earth were created in six thousand years

.
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1- No. The universe and other universes are created in 6 days/stages. In the meantime, the earth is being created within the universe.

The universe is created in 6 days/stages, and the world is in 2 days/stages.

After , The arrangement of the existing heavens/universes is in 2 days.

Kaf 38. And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days, and naught of weariness touched Us.


Fussilet

9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

11. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

12. verse about arrangement of the existing heavens/universes is in 2 days.


2- No.

According to Quran our Earth, universe and other universes are geoid.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/geoidal-form-of-the-world/

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/2016/05/goklerevrenler.html

3- no

"And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit." 21.33

"It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit." 36.40


It says here that the sun and moon are in different orbits and that they will not come together.

Another verse says He writes on the Doomsday (big crunch) that they will come to the same place.

4- No

38- And the Sun moves on to its destination.
That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.
(36- Ya-Seen, 38)

The sun is going to the decision point.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-sun-also-moves-along/

5- No

"He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon." 32.5

"The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." 70.4

These verses giving us RELATIVITY OF TIME.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/relativity-of-time-announced-1400-years-ago/

Example in Paradise universe time is different from our universe.

One day/stage in the creation of the universe is 2.25 billion years

Quran 50:38. We assuredly created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and nothing of fatigue touched us.

Quran 41.9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

The verses say the universes and our universe have been created in 6 days/stages, and our Earth is in 2 days/phases.

So the age or creation phase of the universe means three times the age of our Earth or the stage of creation.

Today, science also gives a similar knowledge: Our universe is 13.5 billion years old and our Earth is 4.5 billion years old....

In other words, science indicates that the age of our universe is 3 times the age of our Earth(4.5 X 3 = 13.5).
 
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Truly is it not said...

2:458 Truly, the early moth shall reap the benefits
2:459 for as the moth is silent the worm is tardy
2:460 Thus shall the silent moth feast on the tardy worm

And your moral lesson is???
 
Emre_1974tr said:
1- No. The universe and other universes are created in 6 days/stages. In the meantime, the earth is being created within the universe.

The universe is created in 6 days/stages, and the world is in 2 days/stages.

After , The arrangement of the existing heavens/universes is in 2 days.

Kaf 38. And verily We created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, in six days, and naught of weariness touched Us.


Fussilet

9. Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in two Days? And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.

11. Then turned He to the heaven when it was smoke, and said unto it and unto the earth: Come both of you, willingly or loth. They said: We come, obedient.

12. Then He ordained them seven heavens in two Days and inspired in each heaven its mandate; and we decked the nether heaven with lamps, and rendered it inviolable. That is the measuring of the Mighty, the Knower.

12. verse about arrangement of the existing heavens/universes is in 2 days.


2- No.

According to Quran our Earth, universe and other universes are geoid.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/geoidal-form-of-the-world/

http://emre1974tr.blogspot.com.tr/2016/05/goklerevrenler.html

3- no

"And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit." 21.33

"It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit." 36.40


It says here that the sun and moon are in different orbits and that they will not come together.

Another verse says He writes on the Doomsday (big crunch) that they will come to the same place.

4- No

38- And the Sun moves on to its destination.
That is the ordinance of the Mighty, the Knower.
(36- Ya-Seen, 38)

The sun is going to the decision point.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/the-sun-also-moves-along/

5- No

"He directeth the ordinance from the heaven unto the earth; then it ascendeth unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon." 32.5

"The angels and the Spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." 70.4

These verses giving us RELATIVITY OF TIME.

http://www.quranmiracles.com/2011/03/relativity-of-time-announced-1400-years-ago/

Example in Paradise universe time is different from our universe.

One day/stage in the creation of the universe is 2.25 billion years

Quran 50:38. We assuredly created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in six days, and nothing of fatigue touched us.

Quran 41.9 Say, "Do you indeed disbelieve in He who created the earth in two days and attribute to Him equals? That is the Lord of the worlds."

The verses say the universes and our universe have been created in 6 days/stages, and our Earth is in 2 days/phases.

So the age or creation phase of the universe means three times the age of our Earth or the stage of creation.

Today, science also gives a similar knowledge: Our universe is 13.5 billion years old and our Earth is 4.5 billion years old....

In other words, science indicates that the age of our universe is 3 times the age of our Earth(4.5 X 3 = 13.5).
Click to expand...

What? And nothing about him being a naughty boy?

Hail Brian!
 
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