Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?

It's a product of this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/

"Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts."
 
It's a product of this:

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2017/09/how-america-lost-its-mind/534231/

"Each of us is on a spectrum somewhere between the poles of rational and irrational. We all have hunches we can’t prove and superstitions that make no sense. Some of my best friends are very religious, and others believe in dubious conspiracy theories. What’s problematic is going overboard—letting the subjective entirely override the objective; thinking and acting as if opinions and feelings are just as true as facts."

This was IMO a good article until about 2/3'rds through when he attempts to equate political movements and the ramifications according to him.
 
The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.

I't the "She turned me into a newt...I got better" level of CT arguments.
 
Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that. So it had to be the ejector mechanism. He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.

Let's start with is scientific method.

A legitimate experiment would involve simulating firing from the height, and position Oswald was in on the 6th floor set up with identical cardboard boxes, and beam on a sawhorse to recreate the windowsill. Then you sit there and dry-fire and eject your casings 1,000 times (or more).

Throwing casings on the ground brings you no closer to understanding the problem than timing how long they float in a sink filled with water.

This is the casing in question:

https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305147

It is clear that the dent is not as dramatic as the CT bozos want you to believe.
 
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up.

Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected.
 
It would bother me enough for me to reconsider my position if every argument I advanced in favor of a conspiracy could be shot down when examining the true facts of the case.

And that's exactly what happened to me in the early 198s when I sat down with the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of evidence & the HSCA volumes and tried to resolve the differences between the Warren Report & HSCA's account of the assassination and the story I was getting from the conspiracy books.

I found out the conspiracy books contained a lot of hooey.

Jean: You have a similar story that you shared on Prodigy what seems like yesterday, don't you?

Hank

Yes, I'd been persuaded by Rush to Judgment until I checked Mark Lane's footnotes and saw how he'd ripped quotes out of context to distort and mislead. It made me skeptical about everything I read. Prodigy, so long ago, and not much has changed, has it?
 
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up.

Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected.

Not directly applicable to the case at hand, but some self loading firearms (H & K delayed recoil blowback designs and similar) not only damage the casing during ejection, they throw it into the next zipcode.
 
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

The Zimmerman article on CE543 actually documented the mechanism for denting Carcano shells in a video clip. Zimmerman says it happens when an ejected hull flips out and strikes the "bolt brake." I'm not allowed to post the link, but Googling his name and CE543 brings it up.

Results may vary because, "Cold cases do not dent as readily as hot, recently fired casings. It also depends on how fast the shell is ejected." Gun owner sites online offer similar explanations for "dented brass" -- hitting some part of the weapon as the empty shell is ejected.

Here's a link:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/zimmerman/frontmenu_000009.htm

Note that at no time does he say he threw them as hard as he could into the pavement.
 
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

...
QUOTE]

If you've lurked very long, that is precisely MJ's MO, not interested in facts or science just out of context remarks, observations that have no science behind them. In short anything that may "support" his/her CT beliefs is taken without question and anything is critically obfuscated with voodoo comments.
 
Yes, I'd been persuaded by Rush to Judgment until I checked Mark Lane's footnotes and saw how he'd ripped quotes out of context to distort and mislead. It made me skeptical about everything I read. Prodigy, so long ago, and not much has changed, has it?

Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7707075&postcount=1

On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious.

Hank
 
So you're apparently not interested in going beyond your conspiracy sources for information. Too bad.

...

If you've lurked very long, that is precisely MJ's MO, not interested in facts or science just out of context remarks, observations that have no science behind them. In short anything that may "support" his/her CT beliefs is taken without question and anything is critically obfuscated with voodoo comments.

"Anybody but Oswald" is the CT mantra. FBI memos that suggest something even remotely conspiratorial are accepted without question, and anything pointing to Oswald is questioned to the Nth degree.

John Armstrong is among the worst in this regard. The FBI interviewed roughly 25,000 people (I think it was) in tracking down leads. A good portion of that is bound to contain some poor recollections and hearsay about neighbors that goes nowhere.

Armstrong (who devised an entire theory built around the thesis that there were TWO Oswalds created by some intelligence agency since Oswald was a youth (complete with two different mothers) uses those poor recollections and hearsay as a goldmine, taking recollections of people who may be thinking of other people entirely as part of Oswald's false background and evidence he was doubled. http://harveyandlee.net/

It's just more nonsense.

Hank
 
"Anybody but Oswald" is the CT mantra. FBI memos that suggest something even remotely conspiratorial are accepted without question, and anything pointing to Oswald is questioned to the Nth degree.

John Armstrong is among the worst in this regard. The FBI interviewed roughly 25,000 people (I think it was) in tracking down leads. A good portion of that is bound to contain some poor recollections and hearsay about neighbors that goes nowhere.

Armstrong (who devised an entire theory built around the thesis that there were TWO Oswalds created by some intelligence agency since Oswald was a youth (complete with two different mothers) uses those poor recollections and hearsay as a goldmine, taking recollections of people who may be thinking of other people entirely as part of Oswald's false background and evidence he was doubled. http://harveyandlee.net/

It's just more nonsense.

Hank

Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth. :jaw-dropp

EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all
 
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Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth. :jaw-dropp

EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all

I'm a reformed CTist, JFK opened the door to that world thanks to my dad, who just couldn't believe Oswald did it alone.

I read ALL of the JFK CT books: Lane, Lifton, Mars, and close to twenty others in my day. The last one was "Oswald Talked" in 1996. I come it this purely as an act of penance for all the BS I spread during my time as a CT-loon.

I went to Dallas in 1996 and visited the 6th Floor Museum. It was instantly obvious that I had bought into a lie. It was just a damned easy shot from the 6th floor, and everything I had read told me it was impossible. Then standing on the sidewalk below the Grassy Knoll I realized that a gunman would have been visible - even in the worst photos and films.

In 1999 I began research for a book I hoped to write about an Army division, and that lead me to the firing range. That same year I took a pre-police academy class, and did a few ride-alongs with local cops. Between listening to hundreds of stories about guys shooting all kinds of weapons, shooting an MP-5, HK 40 USP, M-16A2, and a Benelli at the range, and observing good cops up close I was forced to change my world view.

Law Enforcement does the best they can with what they have, which isn't nearly enough. This applies to city, county, state, and federal agencies. Americans have a false sense of police forensic capabilities thanks to TV shows where CSI solves the crime in an hour, and a poor education in general science thanks to our school systems. This makes for unrealistic expectations from the public, and their elected representatives about what law enforcement can produce in the way of definitive evidence.

There is rarely 100% certainty based on the physical evidence alone, that's why good investigations look into the suspect's activities prior to the crime looking for motivation, and then look at what the suspect did after the crime to look for strange behavior.

So when you look at Oswald what do you see?

A guy with no money buying a cheap Italian Carcano rifle at a time when his marriage is falling apart. Shortly afterword someone fires a 6.5x52mm Carcano round through the window of General Walker's house, missing the target because he'd stooped to pick up a pen. Later, JFK is murdered by a gunman shooting from the 6th floor of the TSBD by a 6.5x52mm rifle. Oswald works on the 6th floor, and had bought something long wrapped in paper with him to work that morning.

Police search the 6th floor and find Oswald's rifle and spent shells. In the mean time, Oswald had left the building, hopped a bus, then took a taxi to his rooming house where he put on his jacket, and took his pistol. A short distance away DPD Officer JD Tippet is shot, the bullets match Oswald's gun - which he not only has on him at the time of his arrest but tries to shoot another cop in the process.

Here's the KISS part:

Oswald's rifle killed Kennedy, and wounded Connally.
Oswald fled the scene.
Oswald's handgun was used to kill Tippet, and Oswald then used the same gun to attempt to kill another DPD officer.

Oswald is guilty of two murders on 11.22.63.:thumbsup:
 
Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7707075&postcount=1

On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious.

Hank

Although my father believed that mafiosi were responsible for the assassination, he was no amateur. When the "magic bullet" jive started going around he knew instantly that the problem was the improper alignment of JFK and Connally in the vehicle, not a magic projectile.

He also stated upon seeing the first photos of LHO- "That ******* won't last a week." I thought my Dad was a pretty savvy guy before he said that. When Ruby shot and killed LHO I was convinced he must have known just about everything.
 
I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.

1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials
1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests
______________________________
2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined.
2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three.

That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination.

One damaged shell out of three.

Let me know where the math lost you.

Hank

Where did you get the part about a 2 in 6 chance from the FBI? If that is a fact, then it appears that by some mechanism you are more likely to get a dented shell casing if its one of the first rounds you eject and/or fire. All three experiments including Chris Millis found a hull, empty or not, with a dented lip on the first few tries.

BTW There is another non-conspiratorial interpretation of CE543 that might account for other anomalies. It could be used as a chamber plug. Howard Donahue used the chamber plug idea to push a single-assassin theory. But if you download that 2016 edition of Reclaiming Parkland, you will find a longer interesting discussion about each of the three shell casings.
 
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Not much. The very first post in the first thread (this is the fifth of five sequential threads which should be read in order) summed it up beautifully, quoting from something written by Dale Myers.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7707075&postcount=1

On Mark Lane, I think he has done more damage to the American Psyche than any other individual. Pretty much everything he wrote in RUSH TO JUDGMENT was either a falsehood, a logical fallacy (like a strawman argument) or a misinterpretation of the obvious.

Hank

Rush To Judgement contains more than enough time-tested substantial evidence for conspiracy. Entire panels of government-hired
"experts" have created entire sets of volumes worse than Rush To Judgement.
 
I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.

1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials
1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests
______________________________
2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined.
2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three.

That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination.

One damaged shell out of three.

Let me know where the math lost you.

Hank

Where did you get the part about a 2 in 6 chance from the FBI? If that is a fact, then it appears that by some mechanism you are more likely to get a dented shell casing if its one of the first rounds you eject and/or fire. All three experiments including Chris Millis found a hull, empty or not, with a dented lip on the first few tries.

BTW There is another non-conspiratorial interpretation of CE543 that might account for other anomalies. It could be used as a chamber plug. Howard Donahue used the chamber plug idea to push a single-assassin theory. But if you download that 2016 edition of Reclaiming Parkland, you will find a longer interesting discussion about each of the three shell casings.
Good grief.

1+1=2
2+4=6

I no longer believe you are in any way to be taken seriously.
 
Well both you and Axxman300 and now Jean know I was never one to look for conspiracies(JFK, Apollo, Okla. City, 9/11 etc.) my MO has been and continues to be Occam's Razor or KISS (keep it simple stupid) living through all the events of the past 70 some odd years. I'll have to take your(Axxman300, Hank and Jean) review of the books written by individuals for money not truth. :jaw-dropp

EDIT: I forgot to add the grand daddy, Alien visitation et. all

Bknight, I noticed you mentioned Okla. City Bombing. I believe that there was a wider right-wing conspiracy that was covered up by the FBI because they knew they couldn't find everybody. Especially in this political climate, I think it's about time people started talking about the fact that OKC was done by a handful of right-wing extremists, and not just evil Timothy McVeigh and poor Terry Nichols. Even the mainstream media constantly covered evidence for conspiracy in the OKC case. You know it's bad when the media doesn't buy it. Publications like the NY Times, The Guardian, Associated Press, Denver Post would have stories raising concerns over possible right-wing extremists suspects of OKC.

Here is my favorate smoking gun of OKC: Richard Wayne Snell.

http://okbomb.wikia.com/wiki/Richard_Wayne_Snell

This article is under construction by me, but it's an accurate summary.

I do not wish to continue a discussion about OKC here because this is not the right thread.
 
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