Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[HSienzant]

1. Failure to move your eyeballs up to see my source that I already posted.

2. Failure to stick to the subject of 6.5 Carcano rounds fired through CE139.

None of your sources meet the criteria specified in #2. None of those conspiracy sources tested CE139 -- the assassination weapon found on the sixth floor. They all tested only the same model rifle.

So if the criteria is "6.5 Carcano rounds fired through CE139" then we've got the HSCA firearms panel reproducing that damage in one in four test bullets. And the FBI creating one damaged shell without even trying to*) in two test results examined by the HSCA panel.

Hank
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* The FBI tests were done for the Warren Commission for other purposes, not to try to create a damaged shell. The damaged shell argument didn't appear until the Warren Commission concluded their deliberations, issued their report, and published their 26 volumes of evidence. Critics only raised the issue for the first time after looking at CE543 in the report volumes of evidence.

 

[HSienzant]

What did your actual research uncover about dented spent casings? Not what your one CT website told you to think.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12029750&postcount=1787

And all you do is cite your CT source again, no original research. And certainly no original or independent thought process. You just repeat what they say.

Chew on what they say a while. As your own CT source admits:

... similar damage can be caused by loading an empty case into the weapon.

But they are all empty cases after the bullet is fired.

So tell us: How does the ejector mechanism know to only dent empty cases that weren't fired?

Can you explain that?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Why do you think the dented lip on CE543 is nothing to worry about?

Because your own source admits he can reproduce the damage when he ejects an empty shell:

... similar damage can be caused by loading an empty case into the weapon.

That's why.

I think you skipped the part where you present an argument with evidence.

We're waiting for you to present one. Why do you think the ejector mechanism can know when it's ejecting a empty shell that was just fired, or an empty shell being recycled through the chamber an additional time?

How does the ejector mechanism know that, and only work on shells loaded empty?

Try thinking about the evidence you presented. And why the argument you presented is flawed.

Get back to us when you understand the problem with your argument.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Hank - I forgot that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests. So I will not say that he is lying for now, even though Donahue claims to know that a dented shell case was never found. But it's certainly misleading to quote his "one in four" estimation. Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing. Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.

I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case, but who ever said guns don't act weird?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Gosh, if guns act weird, what is the significance of a dented shell? One could just say it dented a spent shell on ejection, and put it down to guns being weird.

 

[HSienzant]

Hank - I forgot never knew until you pointed it out that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests.

Fixed that for you.

So I will not say that he is lying for now, even though Donahue claims to know that a dented shell case was never found.

Donahue wasn't part of the HSCA firearms team. How would he know either way? And you're ignoring the fact that one in two shells fired in FBI tests for the Warren Commission resulted in a dented lip as well.

And by accepting Donahue's hearsay claim (provided only by conspiracy theorist Mike Griffith and never established independently) and rejecting the Lutz claim in testimony before the US House of Representatives, you're back in the realm of now attempting to prove a negative. How did Donahue establish such a dented shell was never reproduced? Did he examine every cartridge case ever ejected from every MC ever produced? Of course not. Tell us how Griffith's claim about what Donahue's said could possibly be established as true. It can't be, because you can't prove a negative.

But it's certainly misleading to quote his "one in four" estimation.

Why? The FBI had a one in two chance of reproducing that, and they weren't even trying to reproduce it (it wasn't a CT argument at the time of the FBI tests.

Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing.

So now you tell us it's not one in 60 but two in about 70 or 80 trials for Mills. That's more like 1 in 35 or 1 in 40. And if Mills had stopped after getting an empty shell the first time? Then it would be more like 1 in 10 or 1 in 20.

Either way, Mills getting TWO dented lips on shells in about 80 trials establishes it's not that unusual.

If Elvis was a gun nut, he would say: "Thank you. Thank you very much."

Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.

Lutz' testimony is he worked the bolt very rapidly to achieve the dented lip. If Mills did these tests consecutively, there is muscle fatigue on Mills part to consider. Did Mills cycle the bolt with the same amount of force for 70 or 80 consecutive trials? You have no clue. Your attempt to assign a number here is bogus.

I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case, but who ever said guns don't act weird?

Of course you know nothing about guns, so you don't know how the ejector mechanism could tell the difference between an empty shell being ejected after firing, and an empty shell being ejected after being reloaded into the chamber empty.

Hint: There is no difference. The ejector mechanism can't tell the difference. All it has is an empty shell in the chamber at that point. Working the bolt ejects the shell, and sometimes dents the lip -- according to your source, Mills; according to Lutz and Champagne, my sources; and it even happened to the FBI in 1964 when they fired the rifle in tests for the Warren Commission. Adding all that up, we have about a 5% chance of obtaining a dented lip*, even if we grant Mills was exempt from normal muscle fatigue.

So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip.

Hank
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* Including Mills totals, that's 2 in about 70 (or 80) + 1 in 4 + 1 in 2, or a total of 4 in 74 (or 84). 4/74 is 5.4%. 4/84 is 4.8%. Something that happens 1 in about 20 times is not all that remarkable.

 

[HSienzant]

Gosh, if guns act weird, what is the significance of a dented shell? One could just say it dented a spent shell on ejection, and put it down to guns being weird.

 

[HSienzant]

From Reclaiming Parkland:

The Warren Commission labeled one of the shells reportedly found on the sixth floor, CE 543. The problem is that it is a dented shell. As ballistics authority and expert marksman Howard Donahue has said, this dented shell could not have been used to fire a bullet that day. The weapon would not have fired properly. As Josiah Thompson notes, it also had three identifying marks revealing it had been loaded and extracted from a weapon at least three times before. These were not found on the other shells. As Thompson further notes, “Of all the various marks discovered on this case, only one set links it to Oswald’s rifle, and this set was identified as having come from the magazine follower. Yet the magazine follower marks only the last cartridge in the clip. . . .” The last cartridge in the clip was the live round, not this one. Further, the clip contained no fingerprints, and neither did any of the cases.

One of the things Thompson did was to test whether CE 543 could have been dented when it was discharged. It could not. Bugliosi solves this problem the same way Gerald Posner did. He says it was dented during firing. He uses Monty Lutz from the HSCA as his authority. But when Mike Griffith asked Howard Donahue about this particular issue, Donahue replied that, “there were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA . . . I have never seen a case dented like this.”

Griffith also communicated with British researcher Chris Mills on this evidentiary point. Mills, who experimented with a Mannlicher Carcano rifle on this issue, said that the only way he achieved this denting effect was by using empty shells, and he had to repeat the experiment sixty times to get the same effect. Mills concluded this could only occur with an empty case that had been previously fired, and then only occasionally.

Author Michael Kurtz noted that the shell “lacks the characteristic indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald’s rifle.” He then adds that forensic pathologist Forrest Chapman concludes that CE 543 was probably “dry loaded.” Because the dent was too big to support a bullet, it was not fired from the Carcano. Chapman also noted that “CE 543 had a deeper and more concave indentation on its base . . . where the firing pin strikes the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics.” And Kurtz adds that when the FBI fired an empty shell for comparison purposes, it also contained the dent in the lip and the deep firing pin impression. Kurtz also concluded that CE 543 could not have been fired from the Carcano that day.

Gee, aren't you embarrassed to have quoted DiEugenio's compilation of nonsense from various conspiracy theorists above?

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

but who ever said guns don't act weird?

It wasn't you because you haven't yet shown you know what a "gun" is.

What else has your CT website told you that you'll need to be corrected on?

 

[bknight]

MJ, since you have an issue with understanding heresay, I'll cite a definition for you

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Heresay

1. Unverified information heard or received from another; rumor.

2. Law Evidence that is not within the personal knowledge of a witness, such as testimony regarding statements made by someone other than the witness, and that therefore may be inadmissible to establish the truth of a particular contention because the accuracy of the evidence cannot be verified through cross-examination.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Did Oswald suffer any "complications" with his rifle when he was making his previous murder attempt? Or did they only manifest themselves in Deally Plaza?

 

[Axxman300]

Hank - I forgot that it was Lutz himself, not hearsay, that claimed that they found a dented shell casing during their firing tests. So I will not say that he is lying for now,

You're in no way qualified to say if he's lying or not.

Chris Mills loading and ejecting empty casings found a dented shell very early, then worked the bolt with empty casings sixty times before finding another dented shell casing. Perhaps it would be the same number of Lutz himself ever investigated the specific issue of how to dent the lip of a Carcano shell casing.

Again, I posted a link to high resolution photos of the casing in question, the dent is not as detrimental as the Mills and other CT loons make it out to be. My guess is that they've not seen the shell casing, or that they're so desperate to negate the Carcano that they're lying.

Once again your assertions, parroted for other CT nutjobs, does not match the evidence.

I do not know the mechanism for which researcher Chris Mills's experiments determined that it's more likely to get a dented shell case,

This one's easy. Mess around with the rifle ejection shells until you get the result you want, and then go with that result, and not the other 200 times it didn't happen because CT laws of evidence are much more interpretive than the real world laws.

but who ever said guns don't act weird?

You have, too many times to count.

 

[CORed]

You're in no way qualified to say if he's lying or not.




Again, I posted a link to high resolution photos of the casing in question, the dent is not as detrimental as the Mills and other CT loons make it out to be. My guess is that they've not seen the shell casing, or that they're so desperate to negate the Carcano that they're lying.

Once again your assertions, parroted for other CT nutjobs, does not match the evidence.



This one's easy. Mess around with the rifle ejection shells until you get the result you want, and then go with that result, and not the other 200 times it didn't happen because CT laws of evidence are much more interpretive than the real world laws.




You have, too many times to count.

The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.

 

[MicahJava]

The shell casing thing smacks of a desperate anomaly hunt by conspiracy theorists. I'm by no means a firearms expert, but all it takes to see through it is a little common sense. A shell casing is a rather thin piece of brass. When it's empty, it's pretty easy to dent. It could have been dented by the ejector mechanism. It probably could have been dented by landing on the floor bullet end first. With a bullet inside it, you can't dent it without deforming the bullet. Put the whole works in the chamber of the rifle and it's even harder to do. The statement that the casing was dented so it couldn't have been fired is so stupid that it takes a special kind or person to read it and take it seriously.

Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that. So it had to be the ejector mechanism. He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.

 

[MicahJava]

So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip.

Where did you get that?

 

[BStrong]

Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that. So it had to be the ejector mechanism. He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.

The Carcano has an extractor and an ejector. They have separate jobs and do not act on the case mouth.

 

[HSienzant]

Howard Donahue has experimented with throwing Carcano shell casings on the ground hard and bouncing them off hard surfaces, they do not dent like that.

No, the best you can say is Donahue couldn't reproduce it in his (HOW MANY?) trials. Doesn't mean it couldn't happen.

So it had to be the ejector mechanism.

And since we know the ejector mechanism did this twice for Mills, once for the FBI, and once for the HSCA, we're done here. It's not as rare or as unlikely as you and your sources pretend.

He theorizes that the CE 543 was a "chamber plug" used to keep debris.

Theories in this case are like nether region orifices. Everybody's got one.

The prevailing theory is the shell originally held one of the three bullets fired, and got the damaged lip when it was ejected from the chamber. Even your conspiracy theorist Mills admits he could reproduce it.

Hank

 

[RoboTimbo]

Where did you get that?

Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?

 

[HSienzant]

So we have a dented lip on one of the three shells recovered from the Depository. You've established it happens. And there's nothing all that noteworthy about it. And the arguments advanced by conspiracy theorists to make this appear troublesome (and quoted by you) are exposed as nonsense. In the tests conducted by the HSCA and FBI there's a 2 in 6 chance. Or 1 chance in three of obtaining a dented lip.

Where did you get that?

I thought it was elementary, requiring only the simplest knowledge of integral calculus.

1 out of 2 : One damaged shell of two shells examined in FBI trials
1 out of 4 : One damaged shell of four shells in HSCA tests
______________________________
2 out of 6 : two damaged shells of six shells in total official tests examined.
2/6 = 1/3 : two of six reduces to one of three.

That's exactly what we got in the Dealey Plaza assassination.

One damaged shell out of three.

Let me know where the math lost you.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Does it bother you that you haven't been right even once?

It would bother me enough for me to reconsider my position if every argument I advanced in favor of a conspiracy could be shot down when examining the true facts of the case.

And that's exactly what happened to me in the early 198s when I sat down with the Warren Commission's 26 volumes of evidence & the HSCA volumes and tried to resolve the differences between the Warren Report & HSCA's account of the assassination and the story I was getting from the conspiracy books.

I found out the conspiracy books contained a lot of hooey.

Jean: You have a similar story that you shared on Prodigy what seems like yesterday, don't you?

Hank