Telepathy

[arthwollipot]

Honestly, I don't believe there ever was any actual cash offer...

There was. I've seen the proof. The million dollars was held in the form of negotiable bonds, and the Foundation was very ready to provide a copy of the statement for anyone who asked. I did - I received the statement.

The other thing to remember is that while the JREF's Million Dollar Challenge no longer exists, there are similar challenges still operating all over the world. The Australian Skeptics still has ten grand.

 

[jt512]

There was. I've seen the proof. The million dollars was held in the form of negotiable bonds, and the Foundation was very ready to provide a copy of the statement for anyone who asked. I did - I received the statement.

The other thing to remember is that while the JREF's Million Dollar Challenge no longer exists, there are similar challenges still operating all over the world. The Australian Skeptics still has ten grand.

And the Independent Investigations Group offers $100,000.

 

[King of the Americas]

Oh, stop posting nonsense. Perhaps you think it's funny to equivocate on the word "vampire," but nobody is taking it that way. It's coming off as narcissistic and juvenile. Perhaps you could engage in a conversation instead of playing a grade-school game of gotcha.

My point was clearly missed...

 

[Loss Leader]

My point was clearly missed...

If your point was, "Hahahahaha! LULZ!!!!!" then I think I got the gist. if you have any evidence, present it. Otherwise, it's all language games and navel gazing.

 

[EHocking]

Honestly, I don't believe there ever was any actual cash offer...

You believe a number of things that are demonstrably incorrect.

 

[steenkh]

It is interesting how statements such as "there probably never was a cash offer" are so easily accepted in the woo community, but simply passing the test and exposing the Challenge for the fraud they claim it was, was not an option.

 

[King of the Americas]

You believe a number of things that are demonstrably incorrect.

What I meant by that is the demands for a successful test were over-burdensome.

Like some demand for the test to be imposed here. Someone wanted an 8 out of 10, for a positive result.

I believe that all things will eventually be possible, if not probable, simply out of necessity.

I can both raise the dead and impregnate a virgin, but that doesn't require a miracle...it's just CPR and something I like to call "the long shot."

Randi's challenge was to prove the paranormal, or some meaningless jargon, but that very premise flawed. We simply don't understand these things, so measuring them, and demanding their perfect performance to quantify them is silly.

 

[Donn]

What I meant by that is the demands for a successful test were over-burdensome.

Like some demand for the test to be imposed here. Someone wanted an 8 out of 10, for a positive result.

I believe that all things will eventually be possible, if not probable, simply out of necessity.

I can both raise the dead and impregnate a virgin, but that doesn't require a miracle...it's just CPR and something I like to call "the long shot."

Randi's challenge was to prove the paranormal, or some meaningless jargon, but that very premise flawed. We simply don't understand these things, so measuring them, and demanding their perfect performance to quantify them is silly.

Play the line. Careful now..

 

[Loss Leader]

What I meant by that is the demands for a successful test were over-burdensome.

Like some demand for the test to be imposed here. Someone wanted an 8 out of 10, for a positive result.

...

We simply don't understand these things, so measuring them, and demanding their perfect performance to quantify them is silly.

I never wanted you to perform perfectly or even at 80%, nor did anyone demand that you conform to a test that was too burdensome. We kept asking you to define what you felt confident doing. Although I proposed various numbers of trials, I also asked you over and over to participate in creating a testing protocol that measured whatever you claimed your abilities were. Jt512 was more than happy to take your level of confidence and translate it into a statistically meaningful set of trials.

You chose not to participate in the testing. You chose not to cooperate in creating a protocol designed for you.

You didn't want to be tested; that's fine. Don't lie about it.

 

[Carnivore]

What I meant by that is the demands for a successful test were over-burdensome.

Like some demand for the test to be imposed here. Someone wanted an 8 out of 10, for a positive result.

I believe that all things will eventually be possible, if not probable, simply out of necessity.

I can both raise the dead and impregnate a virgin, but that doesn't require a miracle...it's just CPR and something I like to call "the long shot."

Randi's challenge was to prove the paranormal, or some meaningless jargon, but that very premise flawed. We simply don't understand these things, so measuring them, and demanding their perfect performance to quantify them is silly.

If we are unable measure them or even unambiguously demonstrate their effect in a controlled environment, our understanding is just too limited to even tentatively acknowledge their existence. At the moment, after 150 years of scientific research "paranormal" phenomena seem to behave in exactly the same way as things that don't exist.

It would be irrational to acknowledge the existence of phenomena that we cannot prove, cannot measure or demonstrate the effects of and cannot establish even basic supporting evidence for despite long term investigation. A great many people would be absolutely delighted if paranormal phenomena could be demonstrated to exist. I know I would be. Therefore, given the human minds demonstrated capacity for self deception based on wishful thinking it is necessary for a phenomenon to be at least demonstrated under controlled conditions that reduce the chance of fakery or self deception to even establish the possibilty that it exists.

Add to that the fact that we absolutely have been able to prove the long standing and pervasive culture of paranormal proponents being frauds taking advantage of the gullible and desperate, taking any claim at all "on faith" without subjecting it to impartial scrutiny would seem unwarranted to the extent of mental illness.

If you are correct and certain phenomena currently regarded as paranormal are proved to exist in the future, they will be proved by the same methods of scientific skepticism you currently seem to decry.

 

[jt512]

What I meant by that is the demands for a successful test were over-burdensome.

Like some demand for the test to be imposed here. Someone wanted an 8 out of 10, for a positive result.

That excuse is pure bull ****. As I explained in great detail, you were to tell us what number of cards you discern correctly and with what probability. We would then set the bar lower to be sure to be fair to you.

Randi's challenge was to prove the paranormal, or some meaningless jargon, but that very premise flawed. We simply don't understand these things, so measuring them, and demanding their perfect performance to quantify them is silly.

More bull ****. Tests for the MDP were designed in a similar manner, with the claimant making a quantitative claim and the test designed with a lenient requirement. You think you're telepathic. The Independent Investigations Group has $100,000 for you, guaranteed by a surety bond. I'll design the test myself to your satisfaction.

 

[steenkh]

There are psychics taking people's money and producing expensive readings every day. This would indicate a fair level of success, but when asked to do the same stuff where they can earn a million dollars, then they think it is too much if they just have to perform better than chance?

 

[Startz]

Several pages back you wrote

I think I really like this test...!

Can we do ONE card a day, for 52 days, same time each day?

Maybe we could do just 7 days...I ten to get lazy, and I'm also a grad student, so free time is limited.

Today you wrote

What I meant by that is the demands for a successful test were over-burdensome..

I'm afraid you have been untruthful at one time or another. Loss Leader has been entirely open to adjusting a test, but you really do not wish to be tested. I suspect you never did. While you are certainly entitled to seek your entertainment however you wish, wasting the time of people who have tried to meet you in a serious and respectful manner is unkind.

 

[King of the Americas]

There are psychics taking people's money and producing expensive readings every day. This would indicate a fair level of success, but when asked to do the same stuff where they can earn a million dollars, then they think it is too much if they just have to perform better than chance?

People pay huge sums of cash to feel better about the name brand on their clothes. If the purchaser feels better about themselves after a purchase, didn't they get their money's worth?

 

[King of the Americas]

I never wanted you to perform perfectly or even at 80%, nor did anyone demand that you conform to a test that was too burdensome. We kept asking you to define what you felt confident doing. Although I proposed various numbers of trials, I also asked you over and over to participate in creating a testing protocol that measured whatever you claimed your abilities were. Jt512 was more than happy to take your level of confidence and translate it into a statistically meaningful set of trials.

You chose not to participate in the testing. You chose not to cooperate in creating a protocol designed for you.

You didn't want to be tested; that's fine. Don't lie about it.

I was not referring to you, sir.

After further consideration I decided to forego any kind of public verification of a claimed or perceived ability I might have, yes.

I am not lying about anything.

 

[King of the Americas]

Several pages back you wrote

Today you wrote




I'm afraid you have been untruthful at one time or another. Loss Leader has been entirely open to adjusting a test, but you really do not wish to be tested. I suspect you never did. While you are certainly entitled to seek your entertainment however you wish, wasting the time of people who have tried to meet you in a serious and respectful manner is unkind.

No, I said some here had demands that were overburdensome. LL's was not offering cash, and required less for a successful outcome.

To aleive LL of his time loss, I made an offer privately.

 

[arthwollipot]

That excuse is pure bull ****. As I explained in great detail, you were to tell us what number of cards you discern correctly and with what probability. We would then set the bar lower to be sure to be fair to you.

As long as the bar isn't set so low that it can be crossed by just random guessing.

 

[jt512]

As long as the bar isn't set so low that it can be crossed by just random guessing.

You need to read the post where I explained how the test is designed.

 

[steenkh]

People pay huge sums of cash to feel better about the name brand on their clothes. If the purchaser feels better about themselves after a purchase, didn't they get their money's worth?

Quite correct, but when these services are not advertised as a sort of entertainment, the customers are actually victims of a kind of fraud.

In your previous comment you seemed to think that it was the tests that were unfair. Can I now take your reply as an acknowledgement that telepathy and clairvoyance really does not exist, and the practitioners are a fraudsters who naturally do not want to be tested?

 

[King of the Americas]

Quite correct, but when these services are not advertised as a sort of entertainment, the customers are actually victims of a kind of fraud.

In your previous comment you seemed to think that it was the tests that were unfair. Can I now take your reply as an acknowledgement that telepathy and clairvoyance really does not exist, and the practitioners are a fraudsters who naturally do not want to be tested?

You mean like religion?

I will conclude by saying that IF clairvoyants or telepaths exists their abilities currently lay beyond science's ability to fully test and appreciate such things.

ETA: Tomorrow, maybe we'll be able to monitor magnetic output from the human brain, or quantify how these things might be possible in other ways...until then I don't think we could test and truly quantify such talents.