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Brexit: Now What? Part III

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Giz said:
Anyone who doesn't support unlimited immigration is a racist!
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Umpteen pages of discussion and you've straw-manned it down to this, woefully inaccurate, statement.

Well done for being part of the problem.
 
Strawberry said:
Presumably you have some intelligent, constructive suggestion to make about the Irish border. You not being a racist an all will have a proper understanding that its about movement of goods, not people.
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Nah, just holding up a mirror to the hysteria.


FWIW: If I were still living in the UK, I would have voted remain but the constant refrains from the remainers here are getting tiresome:
- Brexiters are racists!
- The sky is falling!
- The EU is going to punish us [and we deserve it!]
 
Giz said:
Nah, just holding up a mirror to the hysteria.


FWIW: If I were still living in the UK, I would have voted remain but the constant refrains from the remainers here are getting tiresome:
- Brexiters are racists!
- The sky is falling!
- The EU is going to punish us [and we deserve it!]
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That's right, because when some buffoon is setting fire to your house, after a while you should stop complaining about it and just let him get on with his conflagration.
 
Giz said:
Anyone who doesn't support unlimited immigration is a racist!
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And if you could just point to the post where anyone advocated unlimited immigration? if you think xenophobia wasn't a factor in the Leave vote just ask Ceptimus, he's made it pretty clear it's all about keeping out the foreigners.
 
To be fair there is a way that we can have an open border with the EU.

We just need to do what Switzerland does.

It's not on the table at the moment.
 
ceptimus said:
It's the EU that are imposing conditions: they have dictated the format of the negotiations; they have insisted that we must agree to pay them huge amounts of money after we leave; they demand that the EU court of justice must remain supreme over British courts after we leave; they won't even discuss trade until we agree to their absurd preconditions.

It's obvious that the EU don't want to negotiate a good deal. They're afraid that other EU countries will also leave after Britain is seen to have benefited by leaving.
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As far as I can see, the EU is far more prepared for negotiation than David-three-day-week-Davis but also that whilst a hard Brexit would harm the EU more than a soft Brexit, the UK has even more to lose.

If you want to negotiate, it's a bad idea if you need the agreement far more than the other side.
 
Giz said:
Anyone who doesn't support unlimited immigration is a racist!
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Ceptimus's post essentially argued for what we already have as part of the EU in terms of free trade and the free movement of goods, but without the free movement of people.

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, I'll fetch the pancakes and hoi-sin sauce....
 
Giz said:
Nah, just holding up a mirror to the hysteria.


FWIW: If I were still living in the UK, I would have voted remain but the constant refrains from the remainers here are getting tiresome:
- Brexiters are racists!
- The sky is falling!
- The EU is going to punish us [and we deserve it!]
Click to expand...

As opposed to:

- Remainers hate the UK
- The future will be unquestionably rosy
- The EU is going to punish us [and we don't deserve it!]
 
Information Analyst said:
As opposed to:

- Remainers hate the UK
- The future will be unquestionably rosy
- The EU is going to punish us [and we don't deserve it!]
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And somehow the idea that the EU is not going to give us a good deal is not a reason to reconsider.
 
Garrison said:
And if you could just point to the post where anyone advocated unlimited immigration? if you think xenophobia wasn't a factor in the Leave vote just ask Ceptimus, he's made it pretty clear it's all about keeping out the foreigners.
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I only made that clear in your twisted imagination.
 
jimbob said:
As far as I can see, the EU is far more prepared for negotiation than David-three-day-week-Davis but also that whilst a hard Brexit would harm the EU more than a soft Brexit, the UK has even more to lose.

If you want to negotiate, it's a bad idea if you need the agreement far more than the other side.
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The main thing the EU want from us is our money. There will be a black hole in the EU finances after we leave. It would be monumentally stupid of us to agree to pay the EU their "divorce bill" at this stage (they've still not said what the amount is but it's rumored to be between fifty and one hundred billion Euros).

If we agree to pay them what they demand, then they have no need to negotiate a trade deal sensibly: it would be in their financial interest to do so but they also want to ensure we get a bad deal to discourage other countries from leaving.

We've offered to continue paying during a two year transition period, but they're still trying to screw more money out of us.

The EU are in breach of Article 50 by still refusing to talk about trade at this point - but they have the power to be in breach and get away with it. The UK's best negotiating tactic still remains what I've been advocating now for months - walk away from the talks, prepare for a hard exit and only return to the talks if and when the EU are prepared to negotiate without preconditions. If the EU are never prepared to negotiate in good faith (likely) then a hard exit is better than what they've offered up till now.
 
ceptimus said:
I only made that clear in your twisted imagination.
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So please explain what concessions you would be willing to make on the free movement of EU citizens? Isn't your redline precisely an end to any immigration from the EU?
 
Wudang said:
The EU isn't going to punish us. It's not going to give non-members like we plan to be the same good deal or better than members. That's kind of the whole bloody point of membership.
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Yes, and the EU has set out its requirements, but beyond Davis pointing out that "the clock is ticking" and May coming back to offer something (because Davis is useless) there really hasn't been that much concrete from the UK side.

Almost as though Fox, Davis and Johnson ... and the person who appointed them, are incompetent.
 
ceptimus said:
The main thing the EU want from us is our money. There will be a black hole in the EU finances after we leave. It would be monumentally stupid of us to agree to pay the EU their "divorce bill" at this stage (they've still not said what the amount is but it's rumored to be between fifty and one hundred billion Euros).

If we agree to pay them what they demand, then they have no need to negotiate a trade deal sensibly: it would be in their financial interest to do so but they also want to ensure we get a bad deal to discourage other countries from leaving.

We've offered to continue paying during a two year transition period, but they're still trying to screw more money out of us.

The EU are in breach of Article 50 by still refusing to talk about trade at this point - but they have the power to be in breach and get away with it. The UK's best negotiating tactic still remains what I've been advocating now for months - walk away from the talks, prepare for a hard exit and only return to the talks if and when the EU are prepared to negotiate without preconditions. If the EU are never prepared to negotiate in good faith (likely) then a hard exit is better than what they've offered up till now.
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Or we could just follow the legal advice Theresa May apparently received and ditch Brexit. After all people voted Leave on the promise we would get a better deal than we had, not no deal whatsoever.
 
ceptimus said:
The main thing the EU want from us is our money. There will be a black hole in the EU finances after we leave. It would be monumentally stupid of us to agree to pay the EU their "divorce bill" at this stage (they've still not said what the amount is but it's rumored to be between fifty and one hundred billion Euros).

If we agree to pay them what they demand, then they have no need to negotiate a trade deal sensibly: it would be in their financial interest to do so but they also want to ensure we get a bad deal to discourage other countries from leaving.

We've offered to continue paying during a two year transition period, but they're still trying to screw more money out of us.

The EU are in breach of Article 50 by still refusing to talk about trade at this point - but they have the power to be in breach and get away with it. The UK's best negotiating tactic still remains what I've been advocating now for months - walk away from the talks, prepare for a hard exit and only return to the talks if and when the EU are prepared to negotiate without preconditions. If the EU are never prepared to negotiate in good faith (likely) then a hard exit is better than what they've offered up till now.
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Specifically how are the EU in breach of article 50?
 
Garrison said:
Or we could just follow the legal advice Theresa May apparently received and ditch Brexit. After all people voted Leave on the promise we would get a better deal than we had, not no deal whatsoever.
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That course of action, of course, depends on whether the EU wants you back, and whether they agree with the idea that an Article 50 process can be rescinded once set in motion. Mind, all the legal opinions that claim that are from Brits.
 
ddt said:
That course of action, of course, depends on whether the EU wants you back, and whether they agree with the idea that an Article 50 process can be rescinded once set in motion. Mind, all the legal opinions that claim that are from Brits.
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But as a rule the harder May tries to avoid revealing it the more likely it is to be accurate. Giving up Brexit would be a win for the EU, proving that leaving really isn't a practical option.
 
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