Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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I think we need to explore this concept of high-tech bullets that leave no trace a bit more. Apparently the one that hit Kennedy bang on the EOP then passed into the base of his neck without leaving any trace or doing any internal damage. I think there's a name for this type of round, and they definitely did exist in 1963; they're called "blanks", and if you shoot somebody with one I understand they leave no residual impression at all. So maybe somebody fired one of these high-tech "blank" rounds at Kennedy while Oswald was firing real bullets at him, and that's why there's no trace of it anywhere.

Dave

The most overlooked part of the forensics is the evidence of internal damage from the base of head to the lower neck areas. I was hoping you would be familiar with it, since I've listed the evidence several times.
 
See how desperate Hank is to lie and shield the truth from truly honest people. He wants you to think I'm ignoring the passage of autopsy report that said "slightly above the external occipital protuberance", when I did not argue that it was lower. He wants you to think "slightly above" means "four inches above, nowhere near the external occipital protuberance, not even in the occipital bone". Put it this way: The wound was low enough in the head to remain intact after the top of the skull had been opened up to facilitate removal of the brain. That's what Dr. Finck always said.
 
Um, you do realize that the live round is supposed to go into the little hole on the top of the shell casing, right? Any defect on the lip of the casing would prevent a round from coming out or going in.

You seem to be saying that the shell was probably dented during or after ejection. Well done!
 
No, I believe that you're deliberately obfuscating the actual entry wound location and handwaving away the lack of damage to the cerebellum in order to keep a pointless discussion alive, and that only one bullet struck Kennedy's skull.

Dave

Do you have a reason for thinking a bullet could not have entered near the EOP and traveled below the cerebellum?
 
The most overlooked part of the forensics is the evidence of internal damage from the base of head to the lower neck areas. I was hoping you would be familiar with it, since I've listed the evidence several times.

Where did the shot come from? Doesn't your one CT website tell you what to think about that?
 
Awesome! You've proven your case that a bullet came out of it before LHO ejected it. Your one CT website will be so disappointed in you.


I knew you had trouble reading. It's a 1 out of 60 chance if you load the already-empty shell casings and eject them.
 
Oh no, you chose to forget the excerpt I quoted.

One of the things Thompson did was to test whether CE 543 could have been dented when it was discharged. It could not. Bugliosi solves this problem the same way Gerald Posner did. He says it was dented during firing. He uses Monty Lutz from the HSCA as his authority. But when Mike Griffith asked Howard Donahue about this particular issue, Donahue replied that, “there were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA . . . I have never seen a case dented like this.”

No, I covered all this above.

But let's address those points in greater detail.


One of the things Thompson did was to test whether CE 543 could have been dented when it was discharged. It could not.

I pointed out Thompson didn't test the actual weapon, but another similar model.

How does one prove a negative? Thompson is saying he did that -- based on what? Ten tests? Twenty? What if it occurs once in a hundred trials? How many tests did Thompson actually do, and how did he determine that was sufficient to rule out the damage as being possible? Can you cite the numbers and how Thompson determined his testing was adequate to rule it out as ever occurring?


Bugliosi solves this problem the same way Gerald Posner did. He says it was dented during firing. He uses Monty Lutz from the HSCA as his authority.

I don't recall anything of the sort. Neither man is quoted. Nor do you reference any page numbers in either book. This could be nothing more than a misunderstanding at best or, at worst, a deliberate strawman argument advanced merely to put the argument away. Please quote the precise words of Bugliosi and Posner where they argued for the bullet shell being damaged upon firing, not upon ejection.

The HSCA firearms panel, of which Lutz was a member, determined the shell was damaged upon ejection, and claimed to duplicate the problem. Bugliosi or Posner citing Monty Lutz is therefore citing an firearms expert. Lutz' testimony would be allowed in court. And Bugliosi's and/or Posner's citing of Lutz' claim is therefore allowed.

Here's how Bugliosi quoted Donald Champagne's testimony (another one of the five HSCA firearms experts). See page 928 of RECLAIMING HISTORY:
Question: Are you saying then when your panel test-fired CE139 (Oswald's rifle), out of four fired cartridges, one was ejected with a dented mouth?
Answer: Yes sir, that occurred during the ejection process in firing the weapon.


It's clear the argument you quote above is just a strawman argument. Bugliosi not only didn't say it happened in firing the weapon, but in ejecting the bullet, and he quoted the firearms expert directly saying that. And it was Champagne, not Lutz, that Bugliosi quoted.

So that's how trustworthy your source is. NOT AT ALL TRUSTWORTHY. They are lying to you by claiming Posner and Bugliosi said something they apparently never said, and in passing on their false claims here, without any independent verification of their claims by you, you are at least as guilty.


But when Mike Griffith asked Howard Donahue about this particular issue, Donahue replied that, “there were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA . . . I have never seen a case dented like this.”

Donahue has his own theory about the assassination, which contradicts the HSCA's theory. He had every reason to belittle the findings of the HSCA which contradict his own.

Moreover, Mike Griffith is a long-time conspiracy theorist, as is the author of the book you cite (Jim DiEugenio). A conspiracy theorist (you) quoting a conspiracy theorist (DiEugenio) quoting a conspiracy theorist (Griffith) quoting a man with a different theory (Donahue) is hardly getting to the source.

Quote Donahue's testimony directly, as Buliosi quoted Champagne's. Not what Griffith says he said (that's hearsay). Not what DiEugenio says Griffith says Donahue said (that's likewise hearsay).

Hank
 
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It's about a 1 out of 60 chance to have the shell dented like that while ejecting them empty.

And 0 chance of being dented prior to firing. See how snug the fit is of a bullet in a firing chamber?

http://www.orions-hammer.com/blowback/

Figure 1-2

So the 1 in 60, if that is correct is infinitely larger than 0. Yep the bullet was ejected from the rifle after firing.
 
I knew you had trouble reading. It's a 1 out of 60 chance if you load the already-empty shell casings and eject them.

No, you had trouble writing. You have corrected your mistake so I forgive you. Oddly, I've found dented empty casings at the gun range a LOT. Why do you suppose that is? Do you yet know what a gun is?
 
Um, you do realize that the live round is supposed to go into the little hole on the top of the shell casing, right? Any defect on the lip of the casing would prevent a round from coming out or going in.

Not if the casing was dented after the round was fired. Actually, it would be difficult to dent the casing when the bullet is inside it, and it wouldn't necessarily prevent the round from firing.
 
Do you have a reason for thinking a bullet could not have entered near the EOP and traveled below the cerebellum?

1) The only bullet hole in the skull is the one you call the "Cowlick"
2) There is no way of the bullet entering where you say without the trauma damaging the cerebellum.
3) The damage to the base of the skull is not compatible with this.
4) There is no evidence of damage to the neck or spine, compatible with this.
5) The "Cowlick" is a complete wound, not only an entry, but a trauma path and exit.
6) No pathologist engaged in the autopsy, or official reviews, went on record to describe the wound you imagine to be proving.
7) It is clearly utter rubbish.
 
Um, you do realize that the live round is supposed to go into the little hole on the top of the shell casing, right? Any defect on the lip of the casing would prevent a round from coming out or going in.

Oh cool, so you know when it was dented, and you know exactly how and went it was dented? You have the paper-trail for that batch of ammo from the factory in Italy, to it's sale and import to the US? You can confirm that this shell casing was in good working order on 11/21/63?

It is quite possible that Oswald fired the shot with the dented round, and it jammed his rifle, and the dent came when he cleared the shell. I realize you have no idea what I just said, which is why you spend a day at a shooting range.
 
Do you have a reason for thinking a bullet could not have entered near the EOP and traveled below the cerebellum?

Lack of eye-witness testimony.
Lack of visual evidence in any of the films shot in Dealey Plaza.
Lack such a wound found at Parkland
Lack of evidence of such a wound found during the autopsy.
Laws of physics.
Laws of ballistics
Commons sense based on the evidence above.
 
It's about a 1 out of 60 chance to have the shell dented like that while ejecting them empty.

You based that on what?

Do you own a Carcano? If so, how often do you shoot? Carcano rounds are almost $1 a piece, you must be going broke with your exhaustive research.

You must understand who the Carcano was designed for, right? Italian conscripts, 17 - 20 year-olds with no firearms experience. It's a battle rifle to be used in the mud, snow, dirt, and desert sands of the Italian colonial territories. It had to be cheap, it had to be easy to use, and it had to work when you needed it too. You can still find Carcanos in African countries today for this reason.

The Carcano was not a finicky weapon. Mostly point and shoot.
 
And you clearly do not understand any of the autopsy in total.

Actually, I think I have a firmer grasp on the autopsy evidence than most. Anybody who tosses an insult to the reality of a small wound near the external occipital protuberance always ignores evidence. Bumper sticker memes don't work for debate on forensic science, sorry.
 
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