Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[HSienzant]

You must be confused. You forgot a few important parts.

Pray tell, do elucidate the important parts missing. And how all the parts fit together to confirm your argument.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

You like to play this game where you change the subject to high-velocity bullets when the discussion is about the possibility of a low-velocity bullet causing the damage to the scalp and skull near the EOP. Also, bullets are highly likely to deflect as soon as it encounters a curved portion of bone. The area near the EOP and the base of the head is very curved.

Do show more than the 'possibility' of "a low-velocity bullet causing the damage to the scalp and skull near the EOP". Show the likelihood.

You can start by telling us what evidence there is of a low-velocity weapon being seen in Dealey Plaza at the time of the assassination.

Or of later being found in Dealey Plaza.

Or of bullets, shells, or fragments of bullets of a low-velocity firearm being found at the scene of the crime, as is true of Oswald's rifle.

The six hard pieces of evidence (1 bullet, 3 shells, or 2 large fragments) all large enough to test all had markings indicating they came from Oswald's weapon to the exclusion of all other weapons in the world.

Live with it.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

You like to play this game where you change the subject to high-velocity bullets when the discussion is about the possibility of a low-velocity bullet causing the damage to the scalp and skull near the EOP. Also, bullets are highly likely to deflect as soon as it encounters a curved portion of bone. The area near the EOP and the base of the head is very curved.

I'm arguing on behalf of a bullet known to exist.

You are arguing, incorrectly BTW, for a bullet that does not.

There was no low velocity bullet fired. No bullet struck the President below the cerebellum. This is fact.

The 6.5x52mm round cavitated upon entry of the skull due to deflection - something we've covered multiple times - and blew out the top of his head. This bullet is responsible for all of the damage to the head.

 

[Axxman300]

I have a bigger gun.



http://www.kenrahn.com/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/JLDUNN.TXT

Dr. Leestma is a well-known neuropathologist. Just Google him.

You don't get to use CT sites as proof since they're woo sites.

 

[Axxman300]

From Reclaiming Parkland:

The Warren Commission labeled one of the shells reportedly found on the sixth floor, CE 543. The problem is that it is a dented shell. As ballistics authority and expert marksman Howard Donahue has said, this dented shell could not have been used to fire a bullet that day. The weapon would not have fired properly. As Josiah Thompson notes, it also had three identifying marks revealing it had been loaded and extracted from a weapon at least three times before. These were not found on the other shells. As Thompson further notes, “Of all the various marks discovered on this case, only one set links it to Oswald’s rifle, and this set was identified as having come from the magazine follower. Yet the magazine follower marks only the last cartridge in the clip. . . .” The last cartridge in the clip was the live round, not this one. Further, the clip contained no fingerprints, and neither did any of the cases.

One of the things Thompson did was to test whether CE 543 could have been dented when it was discharged. It could not. Bugliosi solves this problem the same way Gerald Posner did. He says it was dented during firing. He uses Monty Lutz from the HSCA as his authority. But when Mike Griffith asked Howard Donahue about this particular issue, Donahue replied that, “there were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA . . . I have never seen a case dented like this.”

Griffith also communicated with British researcher Chris Mills on this evidentiary point. Mills, who experimented with a Mannlicher Carcano rifle on this issue, said that the only way he achieved this denting effect was by using empty shells, and he had to repeat the experiment sixty times to get the same effect. Mills concluded this could only occur with an empty case that had been previously fired, and then only occasionally.

Author Michael Kurtz noted that the shell “lacks the characteristic indentation on the side made by the firing chamber of Oswald’s rifle.” He then adds that forensic pathologist Forrest Chapman concludes that CE 543 was probably “dry loaded.” Because the dent was too big to support a bullet, it was not fired from the Carcano. Chapman also noted that “CE 543 had a deeper and more concave indentation on its base . . . where the firing pin strikes the case. Only empty cases exhibit such characteristics.” And Kurtz adds that when the FBI fired an empty shell for comparison purposes, it also contained the dent in the lip and the deep firing pin impression. Kurtz also concluded that CE 543 could not have been fired from the Carcano that day.

Howard Donahue wrote a book claiming that a Secret Service M-16A1 killed Kennedy. So now you believe the round was a .556? They're not subsonic.

Josiah Thompson never handled the evidence, and says three shooters were in Dealey Plaza. Thomson wants a conspiracy, and was never concerned with facts at all. Plus, most of his points have been proven untrue in regards to the shell casings.


Mike Griffith is a CTist, nothing more. His other book is about how the "Book of Mormon" is real.

Chris Mills is a CTist, not qualified.

Michael Kurtz is a historian, not a ballistics expert.

The problem with that passage you cut and pasted is that it only makes sense if you're an ignoramus about guns, and blind to CT thinking.

 

[MicahJava]

There's a nice bit of self-refutation here, in two successive posts no less.



So the details of the wound are indicative of the trajectory of the bullet...



...except where the conspiracy theory requires them not to be.

Dave

Dave, do you suspect that a shot entered the back of Kennedy's head near the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head? It's not completely unheard of for LNers to accept the EOP wound and reconcile it with the official story. Larry Sturdivan's 2005 book The JFK Myths.

A shooting situation like Dealey Plaza/Sniper's Nest, Strudivan writes, would likely have a 6.5 Carcano round enter near the EOP, about where the occipital lobe meets the cerebellum, that would then deflect sharply upwards towards the occipital lobe. His words, not mine. His book doesn't come close to explaining that distinct possibility. He also agrees that there was a hole on the forehead above the right eye, as an exit for a fragment. How many experts throughout all of the investigations were infatuated with keeping the trajectory completely straight? Were literally all those people scam artists at worst or utterly dismissed best? There's must be a reason why the experts throughout all of history have fundamentally agreed that rounds like the 6.5 Carcano round would stay basically straight upon entering skull bone/tissues.

 

[MicahJava]

British researcher Chris Mills likewise has concluded the dented shell could not have been used to fire a bullet during the assassination, as a result of his own experiments with a Carcano rifle. I quote from an e-mail message Mills sent to me on this subject:

Ian Griggs has forwarded a posting which you wrote for the jfk.sharegroup. In this you discuss the dented shell casing.

Ian forwarded this on to me because of my recent experiments with my own Mannlicher Carcano. Quite by accident I recently dented a shell in exactly the same manner as that which is shown in the photographs showing the shell purportedly found on the sixth floor.

My M/C [Mannlicher-Carcano rifle] is deactivated and I was experimenting with empty shells. The very first one produced the dent on the rim. I had to repeat the operation about 60 more times before the results were reproduced.

But the damage was exactly the same. It seems that when using a hull that has previously been fired, the lip of the case expands slightly and can catch on a lip below the barrel opening in the breech. This can ONLY happen with an EMPTY case that has already been fired and even then only occasionally.

This means that at least one of the cartridge cases found on 11.22.63 was NOT fired from that window.

In a subsequent message, Mills elaborated on his statement that one of the cartridge cases found in the sixth-floor sniper's nest could not have been fired from the window:

One of the cases [of the three reportedly removed from the sniper's nest] was found with an inward facing dent on the lip of the casing. This could not have happened before a missile left the shell as the dent would preclude the shell actually holding the bullet. It must have occurred at some time after this particular shell was fired.

Several researchers have tried to duplicate the damage by standing on the case, throwing it against walls, etc., but to no avail. The case cannot be similarly damaged by loading a live round into the chamber either, as it is protected and guided into the breech by the bullet itself.

What I found, by accident, is that similar damage can be caused by loading an empty case into the weapon. It appeared to me that the more times this was attempted, the more likely the damage was to occur. This led me to the apparent conclusion that unless the person in the 6th floor fired the weapon, ejected the shell, picked it up and then reloaded it (a pointless activity, as I'm sure you will agree), this particular case had been fired at some earlier time, then reloaded empty, probably several times. I consider that this is what caused the damage.

This left me wondering why (a) practice with an empty shell case? and (b) why leave an extra case behind?

Question A: At first I thought it may be to practice with the weapon but I guess that would be just as effective without a shell case in. I now think it more likely that the empty case was fed through several times in order that it could be matched (by scratch marks on its surface) to the M/C, whether or not the original bullet was really fired from that weapon.

Which brings me to Question B: As I said in my last letter, if you plant a missile which is supposed to have come from the murder weapon, you must have a shell casing to go with it at the murder scene. If not, more missiles may turn up than cases found. Hence the dumped case, whoever did it being unaware of the damage to its lip.

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/id135.htm

Where's your experimental evidence on this subject? Is there any at all besides that one guy from the discredited HSCA claiming that some guy maybe found a dented shell?

 

[Axxman300]

Too bad there aren't any high resolution photos of the shells. Oh wait, there are:

Exhibit 543: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305147

Exhibit 544: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305148

Exhibit 545: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305149

One of the cases [of the three reportedly removed from the sniper's nest] was found with an inward facing dent on the lip of the casing.

Apparently not. You have bought into yet another lie. The links to the shell casings are above. 543 has a slight indent in the right, but it's clearly shootable

I'm going to go out on a limb ans suggest that the bullet from 543 might be the one that missed.

Either way, two of Oswald's rounds stuck home so everything you've posted is pointless drivel.

 

[Axxman300]

Dave, do you suspect that a shot entered the back of Kennedy's head near the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head? It's not completely unheard of for LNers to accept the EOP wound and reconcile it with the official story. Larry Sturdivan's 2005 book The JFK Myths.

A shooting situation like Dealey Plaza/Sniper's Nest, Strudivan writes, would likely have a 6.5 Carcano round enter near the EOP, about where the occipital lobe meets the cerebellum, that would then deflect sharply upwards towards the occipital lobe.

He speculates. Strudivan wants to sell a book, nothing more.

This is what he said while under oath:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo/hscastur.htm

He also agrees that there was a hole on the forehead above the right eye, as an exit for a fragment.

He's not a pathologist.

How many experts throughout all of the investigations were infatuated with keeping the trajectory completely straight?

None. Seriously, not one ballistics expert said this. The autopsy and visual evidence doesn't support this.

There's must be a reason why the experts throughout all of history have fundamentally agreed that rounds like the 6.5 Carcano round would stay basically straight upon entering skull bone/tissues.

Again you show your lack of research.

Hell, Strudivan presented his research using ballistic gels to depict cavitation and deflection of the 6.5x52mm round...which you clearly haven't read, or don't understand.

 

[HSienzant]

Dave, do you suspect that a shot entered the back of Kennedy's head near the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head? It's not completely unheard of for LNers to accept the EOP wound and reconcile it with the official story. Larry Sturdivan's 2005 book The JFK Myths.

A shooting situation like Dealey Plaza/Sniper's Nest, Strudivan writes, would likely have a 6.5 Carcano round enter near the EOP, about where the occipital lobe meets the cerebellum, that would then deflect sharply upwards towards the occipital lobe [Did you mean that? - Hank]. His words, not mine. His book doesn't come close to explaining that distinct possibility. He also agrees that there was a hole on the forehead above the right eye, as an exit for a fragment.

Your posts don't come close to explaining your argument for a deflection downwards, as opposed to one to the left, right, or upwards.

How many experts throughout all of the investigations were infatuated with keeping the trajectory completely straight? Were literally all those people scam artists at worst or utterly dismissed best? There's must be a reason why the experts throughout all of history have fundamentally agreed that rounds like the 6.5 Carcano round would stay basically straight upon entering skull bone/tissues.

Hilarious. Then why were you arguing for a deflection downwards for months on end?

Oh, that's right. An imaginary shooter with an imaginary weapon firing imaginary bullets that do imaginary damage.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

http://the-puzzle-palace.com/id135.htm

Where's your experimental evidence on this subject? Is there any at all besides that one guy from the discredited HSCA claiming that some guy maybe found a dented shell?

You quote a conspiracy theorist quoting another conspiracy theorist who says it can't be done.

I cited the HSCA firearms panel which says it was done.

Guess which wins? (No need to guess).

The actual result trumps the argument that it's impossible. It's equally impossible for the Patriots to come from 28-3 down in the Super Bowl last February, but then, here you go:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...center/sp-id-10401000001635885?ocid=INSSPBD10

And then, anytime the HSCA concludes anything you don't like, they are "the discredited HSCA".

And you then throw up a strawman argument ("Is there any at all besides that one guy from the discredited HSCA claiming that some guy maybe found a dented shell?")

Please read the statement I cited earlier. It says "the panel", not one guy.

Would the dent on the mouth of CE 543, one of the three expended cartridge cases found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository, prevent the bullet from being fired in the CE 139 Mannlicher-Careano rifle, or any other rifle? Can it be determined whether these cartridge cases had been chambered on more than one occasion?
(155) Figure 8B shows a dent on the mouth of the CE 543 cartridge case which Josiah Thompson, a critic of the Warren Commission, said would prevent CE 543 from being fired in any rifle.(79)
(156) It is the opinion of the panel that the dent on the mouth of the CE 543 cartridge case was produced when the cartridge case was ejected from the rifle. This condition was duplicated during test-firing of the CE 139 rifle by the panel. (See fig. 2.) The dent had nothing to do with loading the bullet during the manufacturing process, nor is it the type of deformation expected if the case were stepped on.
(157) There was no evidence in the form of multiple extractor or ejector marks on the cartridge case to indicate that it was chambered in the rifle more than once. This also applies to cartridge cases CE 544 and CE 545.

You're very predictable. You have no arguments that withstand scrutiny, so ultimately you're stuck with falsehoods, quotes out of context, speculation, conjecture and logical fallacies (like strawman arguments and red herrings).

Hank

 

[bknight]

Dave, do you suspect that a shot entered the back of Kennedy's head near the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head? It's not completely unheard of for LNers to accept the EOP wound and reconcile it with the official story. Larry Sturdivan's 2005 book The JFK Myths.

A shooting situation like Dealey Plaza/Sniper's Nest, Strudivan writes, would likely have a 6.5 Carcano round enter near the EOP, about where the occipital lobe meets the cerebellum, that would then deflect sharply upwards towards the occipital lobe. His words, not mine. His book doesn't come close to explaining that distinct possibility. He also agrees that there was a hole on the forehead above the right eye, as an exit for a fragment. How many experts throughout all of the investigations were infatuated with keeping the trajectory completely straight? Were literally all those people scam artists at worst or utterly dismissed best? There's must be a reason why the experts throughout all of history have fundamentally agreed that rounds like the 6.5 Carcano round would stay basically straight upon entering skull bone/tissues.

Whether or not Mr. Sturdivan believes that the bullet takes a "sharply" up trajectory or not is immaterial because the bullet blew out a large portion of the right frontal lobe, no mystery here, except in CT Land. BTW there was no hole as it wasn't diagrammed or mentioned in the autopsy. So why should we accept anything this guy writes, since he lost on that point.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Dave, do you suspect that a shot entered the back of Kennedy's head near the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head?

No, I believe that you're deliberately obfuscating the actual entry wound location and handwaving away the lack of damage to the cerebellum in order to keep a pointless discussion alive, and that only one bullet struck Kennedy's skull.

Dave

 

[Dave Rogers]

Oh, that's right. An imaginary shooter with an imaginary weapon firing imaginary bullets that do imaginary damage.

I think we need to explore this concept of high-tech bullets that leave no trace a bit more. Apparently the one that hit Kennedy bang on the EOP then passed into the base of his neck without leaving any trace or doing any internal damage. I think there's a name for this type of round, and they definitely did exist in 1963; they're called "blanks", and if you shoot somebody with one I understand they leave no residual impression at all. So maybe somebody fired one of these high-tech "blank" rounds at Kennedy while Oswald was firing real bullets at him, and that's why there's no trace of it anywhere.

Dave

 

[HSienzant]

I think we need to explore this concept of high-tech bullets that leave no trace a bit more. Apparently the one that hit Kennedy bang on the EOP then passed into the base of his neck without leaving any trace or doing any internal damage. I think there's a name for this type of round, and they definitely did exist in 1963; they're called "blanks", and if you shoot somebody with one I understand they leave no residual impression at all. So maybe somebody fired one of these high-tech "blank" rounds at Kennedy while Oswald was firing real bullets at him, and that's why there's no trace of it anywhere.

Dave

Good point, but I think we can therefore eliminate this round as the one in question.

Micah Java thinks his round:

(a) actually caused damage to the back of JFK's head, leaving an entry wound in the EOP (not above the EOP as the autopsy doctors determined);

(b) he thinks that same round then somehow exited the throat (not the top of the head as the autopsy doctors have it);

(c) he thinks another imaginary round struck the President in the top/right side of the head (which is again contrary to what the autopsy doctors determined);

(d) he likewise thinks a bullet exiting the floor of the skull without doing any discernable damage and going on to somehow exit the throat is a realistic option (which is again contrary to what the autopsy doctors determined);

(e) he then says he trusts the autopsy results and we don't.

Which is as bizarre a formulation as you can get regarding the JFK assassination.

He has imaginary shooters shooting imaginary bullets from imaginary locations with an imaginary weapon doing imaginary damage.

And no end in sight to his nonsensical arguments that ignore the evidence.

Hank

 

[bknight]

...

And no end in sight to his nonsensical arguments that ignore the evidence.

Hank

I have speculated that he is a troll, nothing more nothing less.

 

[HSienzant]

I have speculated that he is a troll, nothing more nothing less.

I'm with you. I am not convinced he's not. I see no good reason to presume he's not a troll.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

There's a nice bit of self-refutation here, in two successive posts no less.

So the details of the wound are indicative of the trajectory of the bullet...

...except where the conspiracy theory requires them not to be.

Dave

The projectile that entered near the EOP would have been traveling downwards to begin with.

 

[MicahJava]

Too bad there aren't any high resolution photos of the shells. Oh wait, there are:

Exhibit 543: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305147

Exhibit 544: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305148

Exhibit 545: https://catalog.archives.gov/id/305149



Apparently not. You have bought into yet another lie. The links to the shell casings are above. 543 has a slight indent in the right, but it's clearly shootable

I'm going to go out on a limb ans suggest that the bullet from 543 might be the one that missed.

Either way, two of Oswald's rounds stuck home so everything you've posted is pointless drivel.

Um, you do realize that the live round is supposed to go into the little hole on the top of the shell casing, right? Any defect on the lip of the casing would prevent a round from coming out or going in.

 

[MicahJava]

You quote a conspiracy theorist quoting another conspiracy theorist who says it can't be done.

I cited the HSCA firearms panel which says it was done.

Guess which wins? (No need to guess).

The actual result trumps the argument that it's impossible. It's equally impossible for the Patriots to come from 28-3 down in the Super Bowl last February, but then, here you go:
http://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...center/sp-id-10401000001635885?ocid=INSSPBD10

And then, anytime the HSCA concludes anything you don't like, they are "the discredited HSCA".

And you then throw up a strawman argument ("Is there any at all besides that one guy from the discredited HSCA claiming that some guy maybe found a dented shell?")

Please read the statement I cited earlier. It says "the panel", not one guy.



You're very predictable. You have no arguments that withstand scrutiny, so ultimately you're stuck with falsehoods, quotes out of context, speculation, conjecture and logical fallacies (like strawman arguments and red herrings).

Hank

Oh no, you chose to forget the excerpt I quoted.

One of the things Thompson did was to test whether CE 543 could have been dented when it was discharged. It could not. Bugliosi solves this problem the same way Gerald Posner did. He says it was dented during firing. He uses Monty Lutz from the HSCA as his authority. But when Mike Griffith asked Howard Donahue about this particular issue, Donahue replied that, “there were no shells dented in that manner by the HSCA . . . I have never seen a case dented like this.”