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Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

King of the Americas said:
Are microspherials negative evidence?

Are the scablands negative evidence?

Maybe you could give me another example negative evidence, and how that squares with Shermer saying someone is well researched and well reasoned?
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The flood that produced the scablands is well understood, and has a perfectly natural origin. It is not evidence for the existence of an advanced civilisation. But civilisations do always leave evidence of their existence - heaps of it - and this is not to be found. Pyramids are evidence of social organisation, not of advanced technology.

Scablands are evidence for end-ice-age floods, when meltwater was suddenly released in huge volume by the thawing of permafrost features that were previously holding back lakes.
 
King of the Americas said:
Seriously, you SHOULD ABSOLUTELY watch the video...

A. One located near the coast or rivers...

B. One that mastered agriculture.

C. We are talking about the period before hunter gatherers, around 12,500 bc.
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Why do people promoting ideas about ancient civilisations, or free energy machines, always insist that they have videos that explain everything, and we have to watch them. Why can't they simply set down their arguments and list their sources of information in writing?
 
Tolls said:
You do realise we have thousands of years of civilisations living in river flood plains, all with lots of lovely artifacts.



Another flood washed away evidence of the first flood? Well, not all evidence, just the bits that might have actually pointed to another civilisation...
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Yes, and if you look off the coast, you'll find many places have been consumed by rising seas...
 
King of the Americas said:
Yes, and if you look off the coast, you'll find many places have been consumed by rising seas...
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Um, I think you missed my point.

You said there was a wall of debris from the flood in question.
When asked whether there were artifacts of the civilisation in question in that wall of debris, you replied that there was a another flood.

Did this other flood (for which we appear to not have evidence) therefore only manage to wash away the artifacts we would expect to find (and do find in other floods), but magically not wash away this wall of debris?

Can you see the issue here?
 
Craig B said:
The flood that produced the scablands is well understood, and has a perfectly natural origin. It is not evidence for the existence of an advanced civilisation. But civilisations do always leave evidence of their existence - heaps of it - and this is not to be found. Pyramids are evidence of social organisation, not of advanced technology.

Scablands are evidence for end-ice-age floods, when meltwater was suddenly released in huge volume by the thawing of permafrost features that were previously holding back lakes.
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Yes, and this flood date corresponds with Plato's flooding of Atlantis...

The G.T. ruins are evidence that agriculture existed before 12,500, and afterwards we had a period of hunting and gathering before re-mastering agriculture.
 
Tolls said:
Um, I think you missed my point.

You said there was a wall of debris from the flood in question.
When asked whether there were artifacts of the civilisation in question in that wall of debris, you replied that there was a another flood.

Did this other flood (for which we appear to not have evidence) therefore only manage to wash away the artifacts we would expect to find (and do find in other floods), but magically not wash away this wall of debris?

Can you see the issue here?
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Yes, I am talking about ruins, you want artifact, clay pots, other cultural debris...

If a culture was located on the coast, and was inundated by a flood that consumed it utterly and completely, where might one find artifacts from said culture?
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Fascinating. Tell me why the legacy genetic evidence from selected breeding and agricultural species doesn't reflect that time frame. Was it something to do with aliens?
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Please consider that G.T. IS evidence of the genetic selective breeding you seek.

There wheat began it's first steps into our agriculture.
 
Craig B said:
Why do people promoting ideas about ancient civilisations, or free energy machines, always insist that they have videos that explain everything, and we have to watch them. Why can't they simply set down their arguments and list their sources of information in writing?
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*Why do people take part in a discussion of a video, without having watched said video???

The world may never know...
 
I watched the video (disclaimer: as I do of most JR podcasts) and I found it imminently interesting...but lacking in some aspects. I contacted my college roommate who is a geologist/climatologist working for the USGS in studies relating to flooding and its historic effects. He wasn't convinced either.

Question for KotA: GT is big. I don't believe that it is outside the purview of any particular group to make over vast periods of time, but I'll concede its big. How about something that is 13171 miles long? Would that be big? Would that require some magical knowledge to create or could it be created with general knowledge, manpower and time? Why is the Great Wall of China less mystical? Could it be the argument made upthread....prehistory versus modern time...allowing us the demystify the production because we have accounts?

Just because something is impressive doesn't make it magical or evidence that everything we think is wrong. Frankly, I find Wally imminently impressive, but his accomplishments using minimalist production equipment makes me think that we underestimate what can be accomplished with good, old fashioned elbow grease and a large work force with time on their hands.
 
Also, please read the recently (I believe September 27, 2017) posted article by Marc Defant which critiques the analysis by Hancock. I know you will read this because I have watched the video, as you requested and, in the spirit of fairness, you will read my cited source.

"Marc Defant is a tenured full professor of geochemistry at the University of South Florida and studies volcanoes and the origin of the continental crust. He has received funding from the National Science Foundation, National Geographic, the National Academy of Sciences, and the American Chemical Society. He has published research in the renowned scientific journal Nature and many other scientific journals and has written magazine articles and a book on the history of the universe, earth, and life (Voyage of Discovery: From the Big Bang to the Ice Age). Defant has also served as editor or coeditor of several scientific journals." (Quoted from Mr. Defant's website, in all fairness - www.marcdefant.com/about/)

https://www.skeptic.com/reading_room/defant-analysis-of-hancock-claims-in-magicians-of-the-gods/
 
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King of the Americas said:
Yes, and this flood date corresponds with Plato's flooding of Atlantis...

The G.T. ruins are evidence that agriculture existed before 12,500, and afterwards we had a period of hunting and gathering before re-mastering agriculture.
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Platos dates for Atlantis are not authentic. He had no way of dating events over millennia. No carbon dating. No historical records stretching over such periods.

If the GT ruins are evidence for how agriculture predates hunting and gathering, please explain in what form they contain this evidence, and specifically what it consists of.
 
I find it hard to believe that this civilization hasn't left so much as an old razor blade or broken tea pot.
 
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Surely their old mines and quarries have survived?
Why don't we find any old mine shafts or galleries?
Even a collapsed mine gallery or a goafed out face leaves a record in the strata.
 
King of the Americas said:
Please consider that G.T. IS evidence of the genetic selective breeding you seek.
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No. It isn't. The chronological genetic evidence is in the DNA of the resulting strains from selectively bred species of wild strains 1000 years after Gobekli Tepe.

You can't claim there was a complex agricultural society before agricultural selective breeding, as evidenced in DNA, commenced. That's how science works.
 
Matthew Ellard said:
What strains of grain were from this magical period? Are you suggesting a flood destroyed all seeds and all genetic evidence of earlier agricultural selective breeding?
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Of course he is. As usual with such claims the lack of evidence is the evidence.
 
Crawtator said:
I watched the video (disclaimer: as I do of most JR podcasts) and I found it imminently interesting...but lacking in some aspects. I contacted my college roommate who is a geologist/climatologist working for the USGS in studies relating to flooding and its historic effects. He wasn't convinced either.

Question for KotA: GT is big. I don't believe that it is outside the purview of any particular group to make over vast periods of time, but I'll concede its big. How about something that is 13171 miles long? Would that be big? Would that require some magical knowledge to create or could it be created with general knowledge, manpower and time? Why is the Great Wall of China less mystical? Could it be the argument made upthread....prehistory versus modern time...allowing us the demystify the production because we have accounts?

Just because something is impressive doesn't make it magical or evidence that everything we think is wrong. Frankly, I find Wally imminently impressive, but his accomplishments using minimalist production equipment makes me think that we underestimate what can be accomplished with good, old fashioned elbow grease and a large work force with time on their hands.
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When were the two sites created, comparatively speaking?

ETA: Thank You for watching the video, TEHN taking part in the discussion.
 
Craig B said:
Platos dates for Atlantis are not authentic. He had no way of dating events over millennia. No carbon dating. No historical records stretching over such periods.

If the GT ruins are evidence for how agriculture predates hunting and gathering, please explain in what form they contain this evidence, and specifically what it consists of.
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Accurate, sure, but not authentic...?

If you mean Plato wasn't alive to witness it, I agree.
 
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