The Deep State and its real motives

[Border Reiver]

Because elections help align the interests of elected politicians with those of the electorate. But there isn't a similarly effective mechanism to align the interests of unelected bureaucrats with the electorate.

I disagree that elections necessarily align the interests of politicians with the electorate - elections generally give politicians the opportunity to appear to align themselves with what people think are their interests.

Let's use the coal/manufacturing jobs bit from the last US election as an example. We can all agree that it is in the interests of people to have meaningful jobs that provide them and their families a living and a sense of fulfillment. One candidate tells the electorate that "I'm going to bring those jobs back and its going to be great" and the other tells them that "We've got to adapt to the changing economy". We all know which one got elected - the one that offered the most pleasant solution to the electorate interest in jobs - the one that didn't involve job loss, change to employment and the need to uproot and move because the nature of certain jobs have changed (coal mining not being a growth industry for many factors and the increased use of automation in manufacturing) in a way that will not bring back "the good old days."

That doesn't mean that it was in the interests of those workers to elect the one that they did, postponing dealing with the longer term issues of global economic change in favour of a short term uptick, or a realization that they were sold a bill of goods.

 

[Darth Rotor]

It is like with Pizza gate, sure it is a conspiracy theory but when it is endorsed by major political figures like the national security adviser it becomes main stream politics as well.

News flash for you. The National Security Adviser's name is McMaster. Do keep up, will you? Flynn got the ax.

 

[ponderingturtle]

News flash for you. The National Security Adviser's name is McMaster. Do keep up, will you? Flynn got the ax.

How does that make official government support for a conspiracy theory not major news?

What now we are not going to be able to talk about global warming here either?

 

[Ziggurat]

I disagree that elections necessarily align the interests of politicians with the electorate

That's why I said they help to align interests, rather than simply saying they align interests. It doesn't always work, but it still puts pressure in that direction.

 

[Darth Rotor]

What now we are not going to be able to talk about global warming here either?

I would have thought you'd be pleased that Flynn got the ax. Accountability. A good thing.

 

[Travis]

Obama is busy. Notable conservative commentator Rick Wiles claims Obama created racism and is still hard at work poisoning society.

“We didn’t have this kind of racial hatred before Obama. I’ve never seen this kind of racial hatred in my life — never. He poisoned our society and he did it deliberately to start a civil war. He’s just a paid thug. We need to know who he works for, but he’s a thug.”
...
“He’s paid to start a revolution, and I’m telling you folks, if you could get inside of Obama’s house, you would quickly discover that all day long he’s orchestrating the revolt across the nation. He’s on the phone, he’s working it, he’s calling his people and he is telling them what to do. He is totally in charge of this rebellion. This is a rebellion — and Obama is leading it.”

This was on Wednesday during his national radio broadcast and he was upset about the ongoing NFL protests.

 

[phiwum]

Obama is busy. Notable conservative commentator Rick Wiles claims Obama created racism and is still hard at work poisoning society.



This was on Wednesday during his national radio broadcast and he was upset about the ongoing NFL protests.

Notable?

Is it actually a radio broadcast or an internet-based show? I couldn't find any links to radio stations carrying his program.

I mean, sure, this is a nutty claim and he is a nutty guy, but there are lots of examples of both of those things. It's not like the president calls him up and speaks glowingly of his program, say. This guy is just trying to out-Alex-Jones Alex Jones.

 

[Travis]

Do you spend much time on RightWingWatch? Rick Wiles has a huge rep over there. He's been blasting hate for Obama as long as I can remember.

 

[Ziggurat]

Do you spend much time on RightWingWatch? Rick Wiles has a huge rep over there. He's been blasting hate for Obama as long as I can remember.

Um... that tells us nothing about the size of his audience.

 

[phiwum]

Um... that tells us nothing about the size of his audience.

I have to agree with Ziggurat here. When speaking of the influence of this guy, we mean something like "how large is his audience of believers?" not "how much ink does rightwingwatch spill on him?"

You can convince me he's a big wheel. I don't know whether he is or not. Lots of big wheels in conservative circles escape my notice. But arguing that RWW pays attention to him doesn't provide too much evidence that he's a national figure (much less that he has a national radio broadcast -- does he?).

ETA: Not particularly good evidence, but I notice he doesn't have a Wikipedia page. I went there hoping to learn about his nationwide radio broadcast.

ETA++: By the way, Zig, I invite you to clarify your notions of "virtue signalling" to tell me whether I've misrepresented you over in the NFL thread. Please, don't leave me hanging here, because I want to discuss your own notions and not my interpretations of such.

 

[caveman1917]

That's why I said they help to align interests, rather than simply saying they align interests. It doesn't always work, but it still puts pressure in that direction.

I'm assuming you got evidence for that rather than just wishful thinking? And it better be good evidence, because there's plenty of evidence showing that the effect is zilch.

Also, the deep state would be better defined as the resulting institutional power over the state apparatus, above and beyond the so-called "democratic" veneer, held by those with economic power with the goal of attaining greater economic power, rather than just bureaucrats defending their turf.

 

[caveman1917]

It is my contention that a "deep state" cannot logically exist. Here is my primary prohibitive observational evidence. Where am I going wrong?

1. A deep state would simply eliminate or silence people like Alex Jones.

No it wouldn't, quite the opposite. If you were part of a relatively small group of people with such power that your influence over the state apparatus could be considered to constitute a "deep state" then it would be in your interest to have people like Alex Jones around who would deflect criticism of, and attempt to dominate the narrative of, such power imbalances and the effect they have on the state by screaming about the evil alien Reptilians ruling us all in secret or something like that.

 

[jakesteele]

=Norman Alexander;12004258]Deep State is actually "Hi I'm Alan Jones and I say stupid weird **** to get your attention all the time. Buy my stuff! Send me money!"

The deep state is real. I'm going to take this guy's word over someone who undoubtedly always believes the Official Story.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/

 

[Darth Rotor]

The deep state is real. I'm going to take this guy's word over someone who undoubtedly always believes the Official Story.

http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/

Jake, thanks for the link, I have some close friends in the DC area who work as Intel contractors, who cost the government 70% of what a GS employee would cost, and I understand how all of that works. Have more than a few friends who worked for Blackwater in Iraq. They have interesting stories.

Sadly, your meme "official story" discredits you. I've got a couple of close friends who were in the Pentagon when that aircraft hit. Quite frankly, you need to pull real hard. When you hear that popping sound, you'll see daylight.

 

[Roger Ramjets]

No it wouldn't, quite the opposite. If you were part of a relatively small group of people with such power that your influence over the state apparatus could be considered to constitute a "deep state" then it would be in your interest to have people like Alex Jones around who would deflect criticism of, and attempt to dominate the narrative of, such power imbalances and the effect they have on the state by screaming about the evil alien Reptilians ruling us all in secret or something like that.

Or you could be Alex Jones. That way you get to control the narrative, and nobody will suspect that you are the very thing you pretend to be against!

 

[Toontown]

No it wouldn't, quite the opposite. If you were part of a relatively small group of people with such power that your influence over the state apparatus could be considered to constitute a "deep state" then it would be in your interest to have people like Alex Jones around who would deflect criticism of, and attempt to dominate the narrative of, such power imbalances and the effect they have on the state by screaming about the evil alien Reptilians ruling us all in secret or something like that.

The biggest flaw in your argument is that Jones is not deflecting criticism of the deep state. He's calling it out. Nevermind the fact that he wouldn't have the guts to call it out if he believed it actually existed.

The second biggest flaw in your argument is, if I were part of a relatively small group with such power, I wouldn't need Alex Jones or any other loudmouth. He'd be about as useful to me as tits on a boar hog. I would actually find him annoying, and would have the means to do something about him.

 

[Toontown]

Or you could be Alex Jones. That way you get to control the narrative, and nobody will suspect that you are the very thing you pretend to be against!

Or better yet, just stay out of sight, and no one would ever suspect me of being anything, because they wouldn't know I exist.

After all, isn't my anonymity what makes me the hypothetical "deep state" in the first place? So why would I want to come out in the open, start a radio station, and start screaming about a deep state?

 

[caveman1917]

The biggest flaw in your argument is that Jones is not deflecting criticism of the deep state. He's calling it out.

No he isn't, he deflects it. You seem to be completely missing the dynamic here.

Let's consider 1920's-30's Europe where you can see this dynamic playing out in high-gear. On the one hand you have the communists/socialists making structural arguments against economic elites. On the other hand you have the nazis who claim to "also be socialists" but deflect those structural arguments by making it into a conspiracy theory (ie the Jewish conspiracy which rules us all).

At the time there was a real threat of revolution, so you see this dynamic kick into high gear. But it's the same dynamic playing out in low-gear at other times. Suppose you're giving a speech about structural power imbalances under capitalism and its effects on the state, and someone jumps on stage next to you and starts screaming: "you're totally right! The Reptilian overlords are in a conspiracy with the elites to rule us all!". In whose interest do you think that is?

The second biggest flaw in your argument is, if I were part of a relatively small group with such power, I wouldn't need Alex Jones or any other loudmouth. He'd be about as useful to me as tits on a boar hog. I would actually find him annoying, and would have the means to do something about him.

Yet at the time the biggest benefactor of the NSDAP was big business. Why do you think that is? Because when their power base is being threatened, it's in the interests of those in power to deflect criticism of it. By your logic economic elites in 1920's-30's Germany would have tried to do move against the NSDAP because reasons, thereby letting the narrative against power imbalances be dominated by those (communists/socialists) who would actually threaten their power base. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[caveman1917]

Or better yet, just stay out of sight, and no one would ever suspect me of being anything, because they wouldn't know I exist.

After all, isn't my anonymity what makes me the hypothetical "deep state" in the first place? So why would I want to come out in the open, start a radio station, and start screaming about a deep state?

Your anonymity? How exactly were you planning on staying anonymous whilst at the same thing controlling that much economic power that you can influence the state to do your bidding? Have you read the article linked to a couple of posts above by jakesteele? There's nothing anonymous about it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I would have thought you'd be pleased that Flynn got the ax. Accountability. A good thing.

But he wasn't axed for supporting these kind of conspiracy theories. At least can talk about how china created the lies of global warming and is manufacturing the hurricanes that are causing so much damage and death in the US.