Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[bknight]

Slightly off topic but MJ is getting beat up badly in two separate threads (s)he truly must be stubborn to the nth degree.

 

[BStrong]

The only aspect you've shown is that individuals' memory tends to fade/change with years/decades after the fact. But then you are too young to experience that fact.

In the new PBS documentary on the Vietnam war, the segment on Tet '68 includes footage of the summary execution of a suspected VC by General Loan.

A Vietnamese witness described watching Gen. Loan load his .45 automatic and shooting the VC in the head.

General Loan shot the VC with a Smith and Wesson .38 special revolver, not a .45. Video of the incident is available on YT for interested parties.

 

[BStrong]

Slightly off topic but MJ is getting beat up badly in two separate threads (s)he truly must be stubborn to the nth degree.

Black Knight syndrome.

 

[MicahJava]

And you're wrong. If they don't specifically prove it then you have no case.

The combined physical and ballistic evidence shows two bullets fires from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

Period.

The autopsy report, based on measurements taken at the autopsy, is evidence. Corroborating statements from the autopsy witnesses is considered evidence. Why are you scared of acknowledging this basic fact? This is different than a Parkland hospital doctor seeing Kennedy's head from an angle that made his large wound look more occipital than parietal, the autopsy doctors peeled his scalp back, measured everything, studied his skull.

And actually, I forgot to mention that the X-rays and photographs can be used to provide evidence of the EOP wound.

1. The bruises on Kennedy's neck apparent on the photographs, consistent with a skull base fracture or a bullet traveling down the neck.

2. The cavity of air in the neck area shown on the X-rays, likewise.

3. The possible bullet fragment in the upper neck identified by Cyril Wecht.

The autopsy is the last word on the subject.

The "repeated clarifying statements" come from interviews and depositions in the years after the autopsy, often asked my laymen, or garden variety morons. From these come the cherry-picking CT industry that pulls out quotes that seem to contradict the autopsy, and they pretend they've found a smoking gun that soon gets shot to pieces by experts.

The autopsy explained everything, and is the final legal document on the subject. The fact is that it is possible to over-explain something, which we often see when honest people are confronted by CTist (who are never honest).

You have yet to explain WHERE the second gunman fired from, WHAT caliber of bullet was used, WHY nobody saw it strike the president now why he never reacted to being SHOT IN THE HEAD, or HOW every human being in the autopsy room missed it.

You are grasping at straws. The autopsy report indicates a LOW entry wound in the head, near the EOP. All other statements from the autopsy participants and witnesses point to a lower wound.

 

[Tomtomkent]

The autopsy report, based on measurements taken at the autopsy, is evidence.

This is correct. Your interpretation of it, less so.

Corroborating statements from the autopsy witnesses is considered evidence.

Unfortunately not all evidence is equally reliable or useful. Statements given after the fact, have to be taken in context of how long after the fact, they are given, if they are sworn testimony, and so forth.

You should never lose sight of WHY accurate measurements are taken at the time, photographs, x-rays, etc, and WHY we do not simply ask doctors to remember.

 

[Tomtomkent]

You are grasping at straws. The autopsy report indicates a LOW entry wound in the head, near the EOP. All other statements from the autopsy participants and witnesses point to a lower wound.

No.
It does not.
If it did you would not need to keep stamping your foot about your personal interpretation of the word "slightly".
If it did, you would be able to use it to show us the exact location of the wound in the photographs.
If it did you could show us the wound in the xrays.
If it did, then that would have been discussed at length in the WC.

 

[Axxman300]

The autopsy report, based on measurements taken at the autopsy, is evidence. Corroborating statements from the autopsy witnesses is considered evidence. Why are you scared of acknowledging this basic fact?

They are not equal.

The autopsy is recorded on audio with the pathologist verbally noting his observations for later when the report is written. All the tools are there, and everything is noted.

Autopsy witnesses vary in reliability from other pathologists who did not lay hands on the body, or have a clear view; doctors who are not pathologists, and are often mistaken about what they see; orderlies, Secret Service agents, and other officials who ARE NOT PATHOLOGISTS OR DOCTORS. There is a sliding scale for who you listen to and who should be ignored.

This is different than a Parkland hospital doctor seeing Kennedy's head from an angle that made his large wound look more occipital than parietal, the autopsy doctors peeled his scalp back, measured everything, studied his skull.

The Parkland doctors were ER doctor and not pathologists.

There was a lot going on in the room. The two doctors with the BEST view of the head wound disagree about what they saw:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuZCxT88cMo&t=1825s

For normal people this FACT is a red flag about the nature of the wound, and the NATURE OF MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS. (hint: this is why you get a second opinion).

And actually, I forgot to mention that the X-rays and photographs can be used to provide evidence of the EOP wound.

Photographs and x-rays you've never seen.

1. The bruises on Kennedy's neck apparent on the photographs, consistent with a skull base fracture or a bullet traveling down the neck.

Look up rigor mortis.

Plus, you say that like you know what you're talking about, and you don't.

2. The cavity of air in the neck area shown on the X-rays, likewise.

There are only 2 x-rays available to the public. Neither show this. CTists will see what they want to see.

3. The possible bullet fragment in the upper neck identified by Cyril Wecht.

Doctor Conspiracy Theorist?

The majority of pathology experts agree with the autopsy findings.

You are grasping at straws. The autopsy report indicates a LOW entry wound in the head, near the EOP. All other statements from the autopsy participants and witnesses point to a lower wound.

Nope.

First off, I'm not the one advancing a pet theory based on photographic evidence I've never seen, combining it with medical evidence I do not understand, and siting witnesses who are at best mistaken and at worst liars looking to make a buck of the soft-headed JFK conspiracy crowd.

The straws are all in your hands.

The fact is that there is an inch and a quarter margin of error in any direction that keeps the trajectory in line with the 6th floor of the TSBD . The brain sketch, the existing public x-rays, and the publicly available photographs show an entry wound fairly close to the autopsy sketch, and the damage to the skull is exclusive to the 6.5x55mm Carcano round.

1 rifle, 2 bullets.

 

[abaddon]

The autopsy report, based on measurements taken at the autopsy, is evidence. Corroborating statements from the autopsy witnesses is considered evidence. Why are you scared of acknowledging this basic fact?

Dunno. Why are you scared of acknowledging the fact that human memory is fallible?

This is different than a Parkland hospital doctor seeing Kennedy's head from an angle that made his large wound look more occipital than parietal, the autopsy doctors peeled his scalp back, measured everything, studied his skull.

In which school or university did you earn your credentials as an autopsist?

And actually, I forgot to mention that the X-rays and photographs can be used to provide evidence of the EOP wound.

Really? You forgot? Like all real autopsy experts do?

1. The bruises on Kennedy's neck apparent on the photographs, consistent with a skull base fracture or a bullet traveling down the neck.

But are they really? You have not seen all of them. Unless you are about to claim to be a member of the Kennedy family.

2. The cavity of air in the neck area shown on the X-rays, likewise.

Who would have thunk. Surely there can be no air cavities in the neck. Nobody actually breathes. That is a myth propagated by "big air" in order to sell us air at inflated prices, right? One only has to look at how much compressed air they had to install in building seven, right?

3. The possible bullet fragment in the upper neck identified by Cyril Wecht.

Not again. Have you read none of this thread and all of it's previous incarnations?

You are grasping at straws. The autopsy report indicates a LOW entry wound in the head, near the EOP.

And jebus was not nailed to the cross by hands and feet, but by ears and testicles, because you are, in fact, the greatest bigly coroner evar. Sure.

All other statements from the autopsy participants and witnesses point to a lower wound.

Sigh.

1. You are wrong.

2. It does not matter.

3. Science demonstrates how wrong you are.

4. What is this really about? Some lone wingnut assassinates a politician. How is it even relevant to anything heading for 60 years later. You seem unable to say why exactly anyone should give a flying ****. Why is that?

 

[Steve]

Dunno. Why are you scared of acknowledging the fact that human memory is fallible?

In which school or university did you earn your credentials as an autopsist?

Really? You forgot? Like all real autopsy experts do?

But are they really? You have not seen all of them. Unless you are about to claim to be a member of the Kennedy family.

Who would have thunk. Surely there can be no air cavities in the neck. Nobody actually breathes. That is a myth propagated by "big air" in order to sell us air at inflated prices, right? One only has to look at how much compressed air they had to install in building seven, right?

Not again. Have you read none of this thread and all of it's previous incarnations?

And jebus was not nailed to the cross by hands and feet, but by ears and testicles, because you are, in fact, the greatest bigly coroner evar. Sure.

Sigh.

1. You are wrong.

2. It does not matter.

3. Science demonstrates how wrong you are.

4. What is this really about? Some lone wingnut assassinates a politician. How is it even relevant to anything heading for 60 years later. You seem unable to say why exactly anyone should give a flying ****. Why is that?

Finally something new and interesting in the thread. Perhaps a new thread to discuss in detail?

 

[RoboTimbo]

You are grasping at straws. The autopsy report indicates a LOW entry wound in the head, near the EOP. All other statements from the autopsy participants and witnesses point to a lower wound.

You've been asked for your credentials many times before to show that your interpretation of the autopsy means anything.

Unfortunately for you, your opinion will continue to be superseded by the autopsy results.

Thanks.

 

[abaddon]

Finally something new and interesting in the thread. Perhaps a new thread to discuss in detail?

Sure, why not. 65 shooters fired 479 bullets at JFK of which only two hit. This was carried out by the reverse vampires to advance their bloodletting agenda and the vietnam war, which was in reality, a distraction faked to distract from the moon landings. When that gambit failed, the PTB waited 32 years before faking 911 to distract from the previous 1969 fake Apollo landing which was staged to distract from the staged Vietnam war which, in turn was entirely staged to distract from the fake Korean war, which means that WWII never actually happened and Hitler was a cuddly teddy bear.

Are you not entertained? Is that not a sufficient surfeit of bat crap nuttery?

 

[Steve]

Sure, why not. 65 shooters fired 479 bullets at JFK of which only two hit. This was carried out by the reverse vampires to advance their bloodletting agenda and the vietnam war, which was in reality, a distraction faked to distract from the moon landings. When that gambit failed, the PTB waited 32 years before faking 911 to distract from the previous 1969 fake Apollo landing which was staged to distract from the staged Vietnam war which, in turn was entirely staged to distract from the fake Korean war, which means that WWII never actually happened and Hitler was a cuddly teddy bear.

Are you not entertained? Is that not a sufficient surfeit of bat crap nuttery?

Uhhh!!?? Actually I was referring to the alternate method of nailing jebus. That sounded interesting. This diatribe not so much.

 

[tinribmancer]

Sure, why not. 65 shooters fired 479 bullets at JFK of which only two hit. This was carried out by the reverse vampires to advance their bloodletting agenda and the vietnam war, which was in reality, a distraction faked to distract from the moon landings. When that gambit failed, the PTB waited 32 years before faking 911 to distract from the previous 1969 fake Apollo landing which was staged to distract from the staged Vietnam war which, in turn was entirely staged to distract from the fake Korean war, which means that WWII never actually happened and Hitler was a cuddly teddy bear.

Are you not entertained? Is that not a sufficient surfeit of bat crap nuttery?

I am. Please, do tell us some more theories. Are you sure that the Zionists & Bigfoot aren't involved in any of this?

 

[HSienzant]

I am. Please, do tell us some more theories. Are you sure that the Zionists & Bigfoot aren't involved in any of this?

The latest in enhancement of fifth generation newspaper copies of the Moorman photo show it's Yogi Bear on the grassy knoll, not Big Foot. It's an understandable mistake to make. Fortunately, we have crackerjack conspiracy laymen posing as expert photo analysts on the job coming up with theories as needed.

Not sure if Yogi Bear was a Zionist, however. Perhaps our current conspiracy theorist can divine that from the extant autopsy photos or tracing back Yogi Bear's family tree.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

The autopsy report, based on measurements taken at the autopsy, is evidence.

When properly interpreted by experts, certainly. When laymen do it? Not so much. Guess which category you fall into? So cite the conclusions of the experts, not your own conclusions. C'mon. Give it a try. Nothing else has worked for you thus far. Try something new.

Corroborating statements from the autopsy witnesses is considered evidence. Why are you scared of acknowledging this basic fact?

I haven't seen anyone deny that statements from witnesses are evidence. However, that 'corroborating' in the above is begging the question. You're cherry-picking some recollections from 15 or 35 years after the fact and claiming those recollections 'corroborate' your interpretation. You're ignoring the other witnesses who don't 'corroborate' your interpretation, and who disagree entirely with your cherry-picked witnesses. You're also ignoring the expert conclusions of ALL the pathologists who examined JFK's body or the extant autopsy materials in reaching your own exclusive conclusions about the assassination. In fact, it's so different from anything else proposed to date you might want to consider trademarking it^(tm).

This is different than a Parkland hospital doctor seeing Kennedy's head from an angle that made his large wound look more occipital than parietal, the autopsy doctors peeled his scalp back, measured everything, studied his skull.

Really? Measured everything? Then you should have no problem citing exactly how many centimeters the entry wound in the back of the head was above the EOP. Please remember 'slightly' is not a measurement.

And actually, I forgot to mention that the X-rays and photographs can be used to provide evidence of the EOP wound.

And according to you, you've only been studying the JFK assassination for about two years. Yet you forget stuff. But deny / ignore that witnesses could forget and then recreate memories from whole cloth 15 or 35 years after the event, and that their recollections from decades after the event are not worth the time it took to gather them.

1. The bruises on Kennedy's neck apparent on the photographs, consistent with a skull base fracture or a bullet traveling down the neck.

Really? I mean, really? According to which pathologist(s) who studied the extant materials or which pathologists who had JFK's body in front of them? Which experts reached this conclusion?

2. The cavity of air in the neck area shown on the X-rays, likewise.

Again, which pathologists thought this was a remnant of a head shot?

3. The possible bullet fragment in the upper neck identified by Cyril Wecht.

Consistent with a shot that entered the upper back and exited the throat at best, entirely illusory at worst. 'Possible bullet fragment' doesn't translate well into evidence. Except for conspiracy seekers, apparently.

You are grasping at straws.

Projection. That's all you've done since you started posted here.

The autopsy report indicates a LOW entry wound in the head, near the EOP.

It says 'slightly above the EOP'. Please tell us how far 'slightly' is. Be precise, and don't guess and don't tell us what you think they meant. Tell us that measurement.

All other statements from the autopsy participants and witnesses point to a lower wound.

Even if true (and it's not, as many witnesses recalled a massive wound in that EOP location, contrary to your favorite theory you've been advancing here), that does not eliminate the bullet exiting the top of the head as seen in Z313. The path down through and out the throat is entirely your interpretation, no one else's, and involves TWO different magic bullets and one REALLY DELAYED REACTION.

1) The delayed reaction of JFK - he is shot in the back of the head, the bullet exits his throat somewhere early in the shooting sequence (Z190 - Z224, I believe you've said)... yet somehow JFK fails to realize he's been shot in the head, only points to the exit wound in this throat and then collapses five seconds later when his head explodes.

2. You have a back wound in JFK but no bullet recovered in the body and not found on the President's stretcher or anywhere else. Why did this bullet vanish? Magic Bullet #1.

3. You conjecture a separate head shot from the right front (apparently - you've never actually specified a shooting location). Only you can see the evidence of this. It eluded all the pathologists who examined JFK's body and all the pathologists who reviewed the extant autopsy materials and found evidence of only one shot to the head, entering the back of the head and exiting the top-right side of the head. Magic Bullet #2.

You still have some work to do. Your speculations about what certain disparate pieces of evidence mean and your attempt to stitch these disparate pieces of evidence (some of them very untrustworthy) into a cohesive whole leaves a lot of unanswered questions in its wake, not to mention are contradicted at every turn by stronger evidence and expert's conclusions. These questions you have never attempted to answer, let alone acknowledge.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Uhhh!!?? Actually I was referring to the alternate method of nailing jebus. That sounded interesting. This diatribe not so much.

Our resident CT might have some theories about that. After all, all the eyewitness testimony is recorded in something called 'the new testament'. Since he favors eyewitness testimony recorded decades after the fact and laymen's interpretations, he might be the go-to expert layman right here in this thread to ask.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

The funny thing is that in JFK-CT history NOBODY has ever postulated a second, secret GSW to the head. It's either a shot from the Grassy Knoll or the Dal-Tex building, and weather the shot came from the back or the front. There have been some elaborate triangulation theories that border on a circus act, but a second GSW takes the cake.

It's daft.

I get wanting this to be a conspiracy. JFK meant a lot to many people, and the idea that a dork like Oswald could take his life is hard to swallow. So if you want to pretend then you have to start with the facts:

6.5x52mm rounds fired from the 6th floor of the TSBD.
A 6.5 Carcano rifle is recovered from 6th floor of the TSBD
The rifle belongs to TSBD employee Lee Harvey Oswald.
LHO has fled the scene immediately after the shooting.
LHO kills DPD Officer Tippet
LHO pulls revolver on DPD Officer in Texas Theater during apprehension.

Oswald killed JFK.

What does that leave the intellectually honest CTist?

Honest CT #1: Someone put him up to it.

Who? Anti-Castro Cubans/Cuban Spies/CIA trying to frame Cuba using a Communist/FBI trying to frame Cubans/Actual Communist extremists.

We sat through Bob Baer's History Channel adventure, and as it turns out (thanks to the newly released JFK Assassination file-dump from the National Archives) the CIA leadership believed this too.

If I were going to return to the darkside and write a JFK CT book this is where I'd draw my story from.

Honest CT#2: Oswald was trying to impress someone, likely Cuba, in an attempt to defect to that country.

This one can be merged with Honest CT#1. It can be made to hold water if you view the attempt on General Walker as an initiation to show LHO was a serious contender for whatever rebel group he wanted to suck up to and join.

Honest CT#3: One other person knew Oswald's plan.

This mystery person can either have known what LHO was planning, and didn't take him seriously, or wanted him to succeed.

#3 is the most likely based on the fact that LHO visited firing ranges in the weeks before the assassination. Someone drove him to these ranges.

Unlike a 2nd gunman in Dealey Plaza, all of these CT's can be made plausible if the story is told right. Sure, you still have to prove them, or at least build a solid enough narrative so that they last a few weeks until picked apart. You won't see anyone advance any of these theories because each one requires a lot of reading, and leg-work in Dallas, and New Orleans as you track down leads (questionable or otherwise).

 

[MicahJava]

Yeah ok I'M the one obsessed with the word "slightly" in the official autopsy report, as in "2.5 centimeters and slightly above the external occipital pertuberance". In reality, the first rational common-sense presumption is that this means low in the head pretty darn close to your external occipital pertuberance. YOU lone nutters are the ones who seem as content as ever getting when the idea gets further pounded into you that your cowlick entry theory is rendered utterly untrue when you view the vast amount of evidence for the EOP wound.

Really, most rational people educated about Kennedy's shooting would tend to believe in the existence of the EOP wound whether or not the photographs and x-rays could be compatible with it. The EOP wound could only probably be compatible with the official evidence by most likely having a shot entering there and not causing a lot of damage to the cerebellum. Unless you want to speculate that a shot from the Sixth Floor could have somehow entered the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head, it looks like this would mean a totally separate gunshot caused the large wound on the top right-side of the head. Many have noted that the x-rays and photographs are not a satisfactory look at the full nature of Kennedy's wounds, and that is probably because witness evidence from the autopsy indicates that several films have gone missing.

There is no strong evidence that the official evidence can not be compatible with the EOP wound. So far, there is no reason to believe that anything had to be faked for this wound to exist.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I note an absence of accurate measurement for the word “slightly”.

 

[Axxman300]

Yeah ok I'M the one obsessed with the word "slightly" in the official autopsy report, as in "2.5 centimeters and slightly above the external occipital pertuberance". In reality, the first rational common-sense presumption is that this means low in the head pretty darn close to your external occipital pertuberance. YOU lone nutters are the ones who seem as content as ever getting when the idea gets further pounded into you that your cowlick entry theory is rendered utterly untrue when you view the vast amount of evidence for the EOP wound.

2.5 cm above and to the right the Occipital Protuberance (not Pertuberance) is what it says. The film evidence shows JFK's head bowed down, which is makes the wound consistent with a shot from the 6th floor. If his head was level you'd have a case, but it wasn't. The entry wound is consistent with the position of Kennedy's head at the moment of impact.

You have nothing.

Really, most rational people educated about Kennedy's shooting would tend to believe in the existence of the EOP wound whether or not the photographs and x-rays could be compatible with it.

That's not education, that's indoctrination.

The X-Rays and photographs from the autopsy either support the conclusions or they don't. They are immutable evidence. Only the delusional would continue to believe something where the photographic data debunks.

The EOP wound could only probably be compatible with the official evidence by most likely having a shot entering there and not causing a lot of damage to the cerebellum.

A bullet can't enter as low as you suggest and not damage the cerebellum, which is how we know the bullet didn't enter there.

Unless you want to speculate that a shot from the Sixth Floor could have somehow entered the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head, it looks like this would mean a totally separate gunshot caused the large wound on the top right-side of the head.

Not even remotely possible.

The 6.5x52mm round did the damage recorded by the autopsy.

It's not that your logic fails - you've demonstrated you have no grasp of logic.

You have zero medical background and you have zero ballistics background, and you believe only CT sources which have all been proven to be flawed. This leaves you intellectually handicapped right out of the gate.

Many have noted that the x-rays and photographs are not a satisfactory look at the full nature of Kennedy's wounds,

Just because a lot of stupid people believe something doesn't make it true. In this case what you've just said is that even though you and these "Many" have NEVER SEEN THE PHOTOGRAPHS OR X-RAYS the idea that they prove a single GSW to the head by a 6.5x52mm round means that you all will choose to ignore the factual medical evidence.

In other words you're not interested in the truth, so why are you wasting your time here. The Bigfoot/UFO crowd is more your speed.

and that is probably because witness evidence from the autopsy indicates that several films have gone missing.

Lie.

Which photos? Which x-rays? List them.