Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

[Saggy]

you read a post discussing non-Jewish victims of the Nazis as a sob story of the usually Jewish victims.

An honest mistake*. I've read 1000 sob stories about Jewish victims, and this was the first about a non-Jewish victim.

*That I didn't make.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Makes no difference, it's a sob story. It only matters if the perpetrators are the Nazis.

I call nonsense. It matters - and that's why we post about it - when the perpetrators are Ustasha, Arrow Cross, Lithuanian partisans, Latvian militia men, Romanian military units and killing squads, or others. Just as it also matters when the victims of extra-legal violence, war crimes and crimes against humanity were Poles, Russians, Roma, Serbs, American GIs, Italians, Japanese, or Germans . . .

Pleases stop making things up about what others on this forum say and believe.

 

[LemmyCaution]

An honest mistake. I've read 1000 sob stories about Jewish victims, and this was the first about a non-Jewish victim.

Your reading is limited - you might want to look up the A-B Aktion and Operation Tannenburg or read about the priests held at Dachau or find out about T-4 and 14f13, for starters - and you rarely post anything honest on this forum. It was not a mistake: it was your bias coloring your reading.

Your selective animus toward victims of crimes is, however, matched by your fact-free, disingenuous repetition.

 

[Saggy]

Aw, how nice of the murderers.

Provide one shred of physical or documentary evidence that anyone was murdered at Auschwitz. You cannot do it.

Then read about the role played by Nazi Judge Konrad Morgen, who led more that 800 investigations of crimes by the SS in the camps and prosecuted 200+ cases, resulting in many convictions and the executions of two camp commandants.

The Nazis actually prosecuted crime in the camps, as opposed to the US at Abu Graib, for example, on any of the other secret US prisons around the world.

 

[LeoMajor]

Don't quibble D. When 'debating' with the hasbara the idiotic lies are endless.

have you met yourself? You have not responded to any citations of evidence raised by any poster here. One gets the impression that you prefer to live i n blissful ignorance of the facts.

 

[LeoMajor]

The holohoax is has the distinction of being the only hoax were the preposterous lies were etched in stone .... then cast in brass .... here it is ......


Then, 50 years after the fact, and after glasnost, the truth was revealed ....

You do realize that the death books pertain only to prisoners registered at the three Auschwitz camps? Those gassed on arrival were not registered as that process occurred after the separation or working and non-working inmates. This has been known to scholars for decades and you are behind the curve.

 

[Saggy]

I call nonsense. It matters - and that's why we post about it - when the perpetrators are Ustasha, Arrow Cross, Lithuanian partisans, Latvian militia men, Romanian military units and killing squads, or others. Just as it also matters when the victims of extra-legal violence, war crimes and crimes against humanity were Poles, Russians, Roma, Serbs, American GIs, Italians, Japanese, or Germans . . .

Pleases stop making things up about what others on this forum say and believe.

This is getting annoying, show me one sob story about victims of the Ustasha. ...snip... Or one sob story where the victim was a Serb.

Edited by jsfisher: 

Edited for compliance with Rules 0 and 12 of the Membership Agreement.

 

[Saggy]

You do realize that the death books pertain only to prisoners registered at the three Auschwitz camps? Those gassed on arrival were not registered as that process occurred after the separation or working and non-working inmates. This has been known to scholars for decades and you are behind the curve.

I'm well aware of that Leo, that is, that there is not a shred of documentary of physical evidence of the holohoax at Auschwitz, or anywhere else, just the endless Jewish lies and false and absurd 'confessions'.

Since the entire holohoax is based on 'testimony' of Jewish eyewitnesses, that is why it is important to examine that testimony closely, and why I will continue to present the testmony of the most important witnesses in subsequent posts. Jewish testimony is invariably false to the point of absurdity, as we have seen with the witnesses discussed to this point.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Provide one shred of physical or documentary evidence that anyone was murdered at Auschwitz. You cannot do it.

Then read about the role played by Nazi Judge Konrad Morgen, who led more that 800 investigations of crimes by the SS in the camps and prosecuted 200+ cases, resulting in many convictions and the executions of two camp commandants.

The Nazis actually prosecuted crime in the camps, as opposed to the US at Abu Graib, for example, on any of the other secret US prisons around the world.

Morgen prosecuted mainly corruption in the camps, an approach which Morgen himself called "a possible way of proceeding." That course was to hit the perpetrators he could with corruption charges, since he couldn't go after them directly for the mass murder and since, in Morgen's view, the debased process inevitably debased those participating in it and would lead them to corrupt activities. When Morgen tried to investigate Maximilian Grabner, head of the Political Department (Gestapo) in Auschwitz, Gestapo Müller summoned him to Gestapo headquarters to chew him out for his having "no understanding of state police matters." Faced with a not-so-senior SS judicial official questioning the state policy of murder of the Jews, Müller went ballistic and threw Morgen out of his office in the midst of his tirade against him. Interestingly, during 1944 he tried to arrest and prosecute Eichmann (!) - on account of the pilfering of a bag of diamonds (likely done by someone else) - using any pretext he could come up with to get at the perpetrators of the FS. He also went after Höss, using the Hodys affair.

Pohl despised Morgen. He repeatedly went to Himmler complaining about Morgen's work and he impeded his investigations. In summer 1944 - at a time when Morgen had filed his report on Buchenwald and prepared an indictment against the defendants, had sent evidence against Eichmann to an SS court, was preparing his case against Grabner at Auschwitz - Pohl issued an order to the KL commandants saying that no SS judges were to be granted access to the camps without the judge having been granted an access card by Pohl. The SS judge for the special court established to try SS cases was at the time warning Morgen to back off - enough that Morgen wrote his fiancee about the poisoned relations between him and the judge. As things heated up, Himmler granted Morgen a promotion - and an enforced 3-week vacation during which he was forbidden to work on his cases. Himmler also had his top legal adviser discuss with Morgen "fundamental questions about the conduct of investigations." A warrant may have been issued for his arrest by the RHSA. In the fall of 1944, at the Buchenwald trial, Morgen felt as though he were the one charged. The outcome of the Buchenwald trial saw Koch receiving the death penalty - but only for corruption, not for illegal killings. Ilse Koch was acquitted. Hoven, a physician at Buchenwald and one of those charged, was not convicted but remained in prison facing re-trial. The Grabner Auschwitz trial was abandoned. Earlier in 1944 Müller, Eichmann's boss, had instructed Morgen not to pursue the case against Eichmann because Eichmann was "carrying out a special secret task of utmost importance entrusted to him by the Führer." And Morgen's case against Höss stalled.

Allied bombing forced Morgen to move his office to Bavaria in the fall. He took his mandated vacation in November and, on his return, was reassigned off his cases to Crakow, which he fled in early 1945 to begin a series of moves to avoid being taken by the Soviets.

Just to be factual here, please tell Charles Graner that no one was prosecuted for the abuse at Abu Ghraib.

 

[LeoMajor]

My refrain is there is no physical evidence for the hoax.

I linked the archaeological investigation of Dr. Andreasz Kola in a previous thread. I will do so again here.
http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.ca/2006/05/carlo-mattogno-on-belzec.html

https://www.jewishgen.org/Yizkor/Belzec1/bel100.html

No matter how many hoax witnesses

Translation: Inconvenient witnesses

irrelevant documents,

Translation: evidence i don't like and chose to ignore

Six million murdered in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms

Annnnnnnd I stopped reading there.

 

[LeoMajor]

I'm well aware of that Leo, that is, that there is not a shred of documentary of physical evidence of the holohoax at Auschwitz, or anywhere else, just the endless Jewish lies and false and absurd 'confessions'.

I'll spoon it out piece by piece for your benefit. Are you aware of Fritz Sander's 02/17/43 memo regarding Auschwitz? Please do some reading. You have a lot of catching up to do.

 

[LemmyCaution]

This is getting annoying, show me one sob story about victims of the Ustasha. ...snip... Or one sob story where the victim was a Serb.

Edited by jsfisher: 

Moderated content redacted.

Without accepting your terminology (sob stories), for starters here is a page of testimonies from survivors of Ustasha predations: Serbian Holocaust - Voices of Survivors.

I suggest reading for a Serbian pov Srdja Trifkovic, Ustasa: Croatian Fascism and European Politics, 1929-1945. Barry Lituchy, Jasenovac and the Holocaust in Yugoslavia has a great deal of source material and articles on the annihilation of Serbs at the Jasenovac camp (I'm too tired to go find the book in my basement and type out excerpts). For Ustasha participation in the Holocaust, Goldstein & Goldstein, The Holocaust in Croatia.

I realize, Saggy, that you don't want to have to find out what scholars and others have written in books, so I am posting these references for readers who may be interested.

 

[Saggy]

Just to be factual here, please tell Charles Graner that no one was prosecuted for the abuse at Abu Ghraib.

I thought they prosecuted a girl from WV too, hadn't heard of Graner, so they prosecuted 1 or 2 grunts after months of media attention. Nothing remotely comparable to Morgen who prosecuted and convicted 2 camp commandants.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Since the entire [Holocaust] is based on 'testimony' of Jewish eyewitnesses

totally false, a shameless lie

Raul Hilberg's classic 3-volume study is almost entirely document based, to take a single case. 100s and 100s of documents are cited in the 5-volume Auschwitz history. And so on. . ..

 

[LeoMajor]

I thought they prosecuted a girl from WV too, hadn't heard of Graner, so they prosecuted 1 or 2 grunts after months of media attention. Nothing remotely comparable to Morgen who prosecuted and convicted 2 camp commandants.

yes, for corruption related offenses, not for mass killings of prisoners.

Morgen, btw, testified at length about witnessing confiscated property plundered from victims of the AR camps at Lublin Airfield.

 

[LemmyCaution]

I thought they prosecuted a girl from WV too, hadn't heard of Graner, so they prosecuted 1 or 2 grunts after months of media attention. Nothing remotely comparable to Morgen who prosecuted and convicted 2 camp commandants.

Lynndie England. There were also several plea bargains.

I didn't say the two cases were comparable - or that the US successfully prosecuted those responsible for Abu Ghraib. I said only that your post was false and misleading. Please read more carefully.

 

[Saggy]

totally false, a shameless lie

Raul Hilberg's classic 3-volume study is almost entirely document based, to take a single case. 100s and 100s of documents are cited in the 5-volume Auschwitz history. And so on. . ..

You do realize one of Hilberg's most cited sources was Yankel Wiernik, right

We'll get to that idiot.

 

[LeoMajor]

You do realize one of Hilberg's most cited sources was Yankel Wiernik, right

We'll get to that idiot.

He cited hundreds of primary sources from archives. Wiernik is a nonentity by comparison.

 

[Elagabalus]

You do realize one of Hilberg's most cited sources was Yankel Wiernik, right

We'll get to that idiot.

Can't wait! The silence is deafening. Which one of your pages from Holohoax 101 will you be posting again? Oh ... that's right, you can't repeat the same thing over and over on this forum. Well ...I'm sure you'll come up with something new ...

 

[Dash80]

Provide one shred of physical or documentary evidence that anyone was murdered at Auschwitz. You cannot do it.

Then read about the role played by Nazi Judge Konrad Morgen, who led more that 800 investigations of crimes by the SS in the camps and prosecuted 200+ cases, resulting in many convictions and the executions of two camp commandants.

The Nazis actually prosecuted crime in the camps, as opposed to the US at Abu Graib, for example, on any of the other secret US prisons around the world.

Ummm... you do realise Morgen was mostly concerned with corruption and pilfering of valuables by guards, and killing of prisoners "beyond the general guidelines?"

He also saw the gas chambers, by the way:

A big door led to the so-called undressing room, where there were numbered places and cloakroom tickets. Arrows on the wall pointed to the showers. The signs were in six or seven languages. In the enormous crematorium everything was spick and span. Nothing suggested that thousands of people had been gassed and burned the previous night. Nothing was left of them, not even a speck of dust on the oven fittings.