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Burns/Novick: The Vietnam War

There was no way that any American president was going to back any communist at the time. The Cold War was waged against communism. America backed a lot of really despicable people simple because they were not communists.

That - and Ho Chi Minh was a communist from the beginning. We might have avoided the war, but a united Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh would definitely have moved itself into the Soviet sphere of influence, and would have been very despotic.

Which, in retrospect, would probably have been less bad than the war that actually happened. But it was deeply unpalatable at the time
 
That - and Ho Chi Minh was a communist from the beginning. We might have avoided the war, but a united Vietnam under Ho Chi Minh would definitely have moved itself into the Soviet sphere of influence, and would have been very despotic.

Which, in retrospect, would probably have been less bad than the war that actually happened. But it was deeply unpalatable at the time

I thought Vietnam would have been like Yugoslavia if Ho had won early on before needing to go to the Soviet Union and China. Vietnam would have been within the Soviet sphere but they march to their own drummer.
 
There was no way that any American president was going to back any communist at the time. The Cold War was waged against communism. America backed a lot of really despicable people simple because they were not communists.
What makes you think HCM was a communist as opposed to a nationalist that sought backing by the Chinese because the West turned him down?

HistoryNet
For more than 50 years, most of which he spent away from Southeast Asia, Ho worked single-mindedly to realize the end of French colonialism and the erection of a Vietnamese national state....

... When he turned to the West, Ho Chi Minh rejected the traditional conservative Vietnamese nationalist course of militarism and a mandarin society, and instead chose the course of republicanism, democracy and popular sovereignty. Meeting other Vietnamese nationalists in Paris, Ho found he could not accept their course of peaceful cooperation with the French, and sought another solution. ...

... Excited by the prospect of a peace based on President Woodrow Wilson’s Fourteen Points — especially the point concerning national self-determination of peoples — Ho drafted a modest eight-point program for Vietnam and, renting a formal suit, sought an audience with leaders of the great powers. His proposals would not have meant independence for Vietnam, but instead called for greater equity, more basic freedoms, and Vietnamese representation in the colonial government.

Unable to gain a hearing at Versailles, Ho then pursued the colonial question in the French Socialist Party, of which he was a member. At the Party Congress at Tours on Christmas Day, 1920, Ho Chi Minh sided with the Communist wing of the party since the Communists advocated immediate independence for all colonial areas.
 
What makes you think HCM was a communist as opposed to a nationalist that sought backing by the Chinese because the West turned him down?

HistoryNet
Because he was trained in the Soviet Union in 1923?
Because he helped found the Communist Party of Vietnam in 1930?

He started out as a nationalist but turned to Communism long before the Cold War.
 
Because he was trained in the Soviet Union in 1923?
Because he helped found the Communist Party of Vietnam in 1930?

He started out as a nationalist but turned to Communism long before the Cold War.
Got a link because that's not exactly how the link I posted describes things.
 
Got a link because that's not exactly how the link I posted describes things.
Those were mentioned in documentary and also wikipedia.

But from your link:
1920, Ho Chi Minh sided with the Communist wing of the party since the Communists advocated immediate independence for all colonial areas. He thus was a founding member of the French Communist Party and became the party’s leading expert on colonial matters. In 1920 and ’21 he traveled throughout France, speaking to groups of Annamese soldiers and workers who were awaiting their return to Vietnam, doubtless earning some early converts to the nationalist cause, if not to the Communist one.

The next half-dozen years were spent as the true Communist internationalist. Ho attended all of the early Comintern conferences, and became acquainted with the great figures of the Russian Communist Party, meeting Lenin probably in 1922. He lived in Moscow for several years; in 1924 as a student at the Eastern Workers’ University. In 1925,

He traveled to Hong Kong in 1930, where he pulled the various Indochinese Communist movements together into one party. Briefly under arrest in Hong Kong, he surfaced in Moscow in 1934 as a student in the Lenin School. By 1938, he had returned to China and was serving as a radio operator with the Chinese Communist Eighth Route Army, eventually becoming political commissar of a guerrilla training mission in Kwang-Si Province.
 
Quite a bit more about Ho Chi Minh's communism:

Ho Chi Minh: Disciplined Communist

Thus in 1920 when he joined the Third Communist International at the Socialist Congress of Tours he had already won some experience in the European Socialist movement. In these years he became a close collaborator with some international Communist youth leaders, the Serbian Vuyo Vuyovich, the German Schüller and the Russian Shatzkin (all of whom were liquidated in the thirties).

-----

Ho Chi Minh advanced rapidly in the Southeast Asian bureau of the Communist International. However, after the Communist débâcle in Canton in 1927, the nascent Asian Communist Parties entered their most critical period; thus it was only in 1930 that Ho was able to fuse various Communist groups into an Indo-Chinese Communist Party.

He was very much a nationalist, sources in the twenties and thirties (from the linked article) described being impressed with his nationalism, suggesting it motivated him more than communism did - but he was undoubtedly more than just a communist of convenience.

Another source:
Ho Chi Minh (1890-1969): Vietnam Communist but Nationalist by choice

He is suffering famine in Paris but he publishes articles in French communist papers. From Moscow of 1923, Dimitri Manouilski, commissar of agriculture in Ukraine, summons Ho Chi Minh to attend 18 months at the new communist university, designed to training members in clandestine activities. Ho Chi Minh is then a member of the Peasant International executive bureau, the Krestintern and attends the 5th International Congress in Moscow and sides with Stalin, Zinoviev, and Kamenev against Trotsky (chief of the Red Army who was for an International revolution.)

In 1925, Ho is sent to Canton (China) to train and teach 300 Vietnamese communist refugees, among them is the future Prime Minister Pham Van Dong. The Chinese communists, lead by Zhu Enlai, Mao Tse tong, and Wang Jingwei enter Shanghai before their ally the nationalists of Tchang Kai-check who foment a massacre against the communists inside the city and expels them. Moscow is no longer supporting the Chinese Nationalists and Ho is recalled to Moscow. Ho is sent to Bruxelles, Berlin, and Paris. In 1929, Ho reaches Thailand from Vladivostok and unites various small Vietnamese communist parties into one and appoints Tran Phu as secretary-general.
 
I'm in.

I'm a little leery, but it might have more to do with the local station airing priorities than the material.

KQED aired a segment a few weeks back as a tease, and it focused on the guys that ran to Canada, and yes, I admit to my bias in this. I have a friend that went to jail rather than submit to the draft. That I have no issue with.

I do have an issue with somebody that ran.

The joke was Canada sent us her best, and she got stuck with our worst.

I always think of this man, even before the 9/11 attacks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Rescorla
 
Those were mentioned in documentary and also wikipedia.

But from your link:
Your interpretation differs from mine. I read HCM turned to the communists because the West was not interested in an independent Vietnam, not because HCM had a communist ideology.

Making HCM a commie boogyman has been the US propaganda since the 60s.
 
Your interpretation differs from mine. I read HCM turned to the communists because the West was not interested in an independent Vietnam, not because HCM had a communist ideology.

Making HCM a commie boogyman has been the US propaganda since the 60s.

We can't really know what his intentions were, at least, I have not seen anything in his writing to points it out, other than things he wrote in the last decade of his life, long after the mold was set.

We know for certain he was an active participant in communist parties, events, and organizations for nearly 40 years before the U.S. sent in regular combat troops, and for twenty years before the Viet Minh took up arms. That's not a crime or even terribly bad - lots of basically moderate people were or associated with communists in the inter-war years. But is does show a good bit of what might have influenced him, and clearly shows who sponsored him, paying for his food, lodging and travels for most of the inter-war period.

Based on that, it seems logical that he would prefer communism to capitalism -- the USSR had been his sponsors for decades by then.
 
I've watched the first two episodes.

The first gave background history of how the French invaded and took over IndoChina in the 19th century up through the French defeat and withdrawal after WWII.

The second episode was the start of major US involvement under Kennedy.

I think the show is very balanced showing all sides. There were more than just two sides. A very complex situation is being laid out. While the inevitability of the North winning is shown, they do show some points along the way where things might have been different.

The only thing that may be lacking is someone saying the US could have won. Not sure if those people exist.
The US did win, though.

This signature is intended to irradiate people.
 
We can't really know what his intentions were, at least, I have not seen anything in his writing to points it out, other than things he wrote in the last decade of his life, long after the mold was set.

We know for certain he was an active participant in communist parties, events, and organizations for nearly 40 years before the U.S. sent in regular combat troops, and for twenty years before the Viet Minh took up arms. That's not a crime or even terribly bad - lots of basically moderate people were or associated with communists in the inter-war years. But is does show a good bit of what might have influenced him, and clearly shows who sponsored him, paying for his food, lodging and travels for most of the inter-war period.

Based on that, it seems logical that he would prefer communism to capitalism -- the USSR had been his sponsors for decades by then.
You're cherry picking to fit your bias.

We also know he grew up under French colonial occupation of his country. Foreign domination didn't sit well in dozens of countries including the US and there have been many leaders who emerged to declare and fight for independence.

My bias sees evidence his priority was independence and the communism was simply a vehicle, not an ideology.

I agree to disagree with you.
 
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