General 9/11 Conspiracy Discussion

[skyeagle409]

did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

Such buckling due to fire was a clear indication the WTC buildings were in the early process of collapsing.

 

[skyeagle409]

That's not even half of the important stuff, and what that comment did address is only "refuted" with BS. For example, they imply that explosions that cause fire were not seen with the WTC. We know this is false. Want witnesses who saw fireballs DURING THE ACTUAL COLLAPSE shooting out of the ground floors? Look no further than Ron DeFranceso or reporter Carol Martin. DeFrancesco even had the burns to prove it!

Nothing to do with explosives because no explosions were seen nor heard as WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 collapsed and the ejection of dust plumes was due to compressed air which had nothing to do with explosives either.

To put it bluntly, no secondary explosions were observed when WTC 1, WTC 2, and WTC 7 suffered impact damages and no CD hardware was ever found within the rubble of at ground zero, not to mention no explosions were detected by seismographs as the WTC buildings collapsed.

 

[BStrong]

Just slap "military grade" on it and anything is possible. The capabilities are only restricted by the imagination...........

And in conspiracylandia, imagination beats training and experience.

 

[skyeagle409]

https://www.reddit.com/r/911truth/comments/6zcttx/of_course_wtc_7_fell_from_fires_the_firefighters/

A good first step for any investigation would be to track down this person and ask plenty of questions.

Let's hear what firefighters were saying about WTC 7.

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers

"A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

WTC Building 7 appears to have suffered significant damage at some point after the WTC Towers had collapsed, according to firefighters at the scene. Firefighter Butch Brandies tells other firefighters that nobody is to go into Building 7 because of creaking and noises coming out of there. [Firehouse Magazine, 8/02]

Battalion Chief John Norman later recalls, "At the edge of the south face you could see that it is very heavily damaged." [Firehouse Magazine, 5/02]

Heavy, thick smoke rises near 7 World Trade Center. Smoke is visible from the upper floors of the 47-story building. Firefighters using transits to determine whether there was any movement in the structure were surprised to discover that is was moving. The area was evacuated and the building collapsed later in the afternoon of Sept. 11.

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

 

[skyeagle409]

...But that was before the East Penthouse dropped.

See here: https://isgp-studies.com/911-wtc-7-collapse-nist-failure-to-disprove-controlled-demolition-thermate#explosions-wtc7

Where are the CD evidence video timelines I've requested for WTC 7?

 

[cantonear1968]

Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense. So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR. The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM). So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour.

I'm sorry but are you suggesting the fires started an hour after WTC7 was hit?

What's your evidence for this?

 

[cantonear1968]

did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

Ok.

Poe?

 

[skyeagle409]

A
On the sounds of explosions issue, it is a matter of historical fact that WTC 7 emitted a loud percussive noise which was louder than the rest of the collapse itself. One witness described it as a "clap of thunder". It appears at the same time in the CBS video and the Ashley Banfield video.

It if sounded like a clap of thunder, then it had nothing to do with CD explosives. Case in point can be heard in the following video CD/WTC comparisons.


Demolition Vs. World Trade Center: Audio Comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmS36uSdtvw

 

[skyeagle409]

did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

Let's take a look here.

WTC 7

1) Fireman saying there was "a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors." "I would say it was probably about a third of it".

2) A laymen officer the fireman was standing next to said, "that building doesn’t look straight." He then says "It didn’t look right".

3) They put a transit on it and afterward were "pretty sure she was going to collapse."
4) They "saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13".

5) Photographic evidence of a fire directly under the penthouse which collapsed first.

6) The penthouse fell first, followed by the rest of the building shortly after.

That should help explain why after 16 years, there is still no 9/11 CD evidence.

.

 

[bknight]

It if sounded like a clap of thunder, then it had nothing to do with CD explosives. Case in point can be heard in the following video CD/WTC comparisons.


Demolition Vs. World Trade Center: Audio Comparison

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jmS36uSdtvw

Even MJ could hear the difference.

 

[Redwood]

Just to be clear, what is the official story on the fireballs reported by Ron DiFrancesco and Carol Martin? Is it where the pressure from the collapsing upper floors shot down the office fires and then they came out like a jet from the ground floor?

Ron DiFrancesco has been adequately dealt with, but a Google search for "Carol Martin 9/11 fireball" turned up nothing other than your post. However she is listed on Linked In. I suggest that if you are interested in pursuing this, you should contact her directly. Better get there before the NWO assassination team arrives.

 

[Axxman300]

Axxman300, you often say very dim things like "you can see the bullet entry on the Zapruder Film" so I will never take your posts seriously. But I ask, do you think the WTC 7 foreknowledge was based on pure coincidental luck or an educate guess?

You will never take my posts seriously because of your ego, and the fact that I used to play your pathetic games, and know everything you're going to say re: CTs.

The difference between Dealey Plaza and WTC7 is that there were THOUSANDS of firefighters (experts, men and women who have been trained, and have fought fires) in the line of sight FOR THE ENTIRE TIME BEFORE THE COLLAPSE. The NYPD Bomb Squad was there too.

This was the situation:

WTC2 and WTC1 had collapsed with thousands of people inside, many were FDNY personnel. Their trucks and equipment lay buried under the rubble. Other buildings of the WTC Complex - including WTC7 were now on fire.

People are trapped in "The Pile", FDNY's resources are crippled, water is being pumped by an ancient fireboat at the river, so the call is easy: let the buildings burn, and focus on S&R.

The chiefs set up a perimeter watch to warn of falling debris from the burning buildings, and to warn of collapse. I can't link to anything, but by 2:00pm there is an assumption that all of the buildings will eventually fall. WTC 7 was not the only one, and in the end WTC5 suffered a partial collapse - also due to fire.

Thus you have guys watching the buildings. They see WTC leaning, see evidence of internal collapse, and clear everyone out of the shadow twenty minutes before the big plunge.

If someone said at noon that WTC7 was going to collapse it was at best a conservative estimate.

 

[Axxman300]

Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense.

He's not a CTist, he understands that people have feelings.

So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR.

The fires were not going to be fought, so it wasn't luck, it's basic fire science.

The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM).

So you were there? No? Okay, so guys STANDING around WTC7 see the fires, but they don't count because there's not a picture until noon? Got it.

So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour

Weird, because nobody said WHEN WTC7 was coming down, just that it probably would, so the educated guess (in this case, someone with education and experience in this kind of thing) was correct.

The fact is the guy, if he existed, was standing in a death zone with body parts, wreckage, and a layer of powdered concrete. I think he gets points for thinking clearly.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Ah, I see that you have taken on the "traumatized firefighters" defense.

And I see you've opted for the "minimize and ridicule" offense.

So you think it was a purely lucky coincidence that the engineer knew that WTC 7 would collapse "in about five or six hours" after it had been damaged by the North Tower collapse for only ONE HOUR.

Rule of So. This is a strawman argument that I won't dignify by addressing.

The fires weren't that bad by then, if they even existed (the first photographic evidence for fires appears by 12:10 PM).

And now we have the "Pictures or it didn't happen" offense. Firemen are trained to assess the severity of fires, and will tend to do so rather than standing around taking holiday snaps. And firemen who aren't very good at assessing the severity of fires, in particular firemen who underestimate the severity of fires, are in severe danger of not remaining firemen - or, indeed, anything else other than piles of ashes - for very long.

So, if you were to ever revert to the "educated guess" hypothesis, you could be exposing the flaw in your thinking. You can't know if, how, and when a robust steel skyscraper would collapse if it had only been damaged for one hour.

And, finally, we have the false dilemma: that the predictions of collapse were either a lucky coincidence or an educated guess. In reality, there's a continuum extending between and beyond these two arbitrarily chosen points. Early on, firemen observed a steel framed building on fire, applied their expertise and experience which tells them - as, in fact, firefighters do know but conspiracy theorists are apparently to stupid to fathom - that steel framed buildings are particularly vulnerable to collapse in fires, factored in the fact that they'd just seen two buildings collapse, and concluded that there was a significant enough risk of collapse that they would be in deadly danger if they stayed close to the building. Later in the day, more careful studies showed that the building was indeed seriously damaged and showing signs, both visible and audible, of distortion, and the likelihood of collapse became more obvious. And ultimately, when the building actually did collapse, the likelihood became so great that even a moron or a conspiracy theorist could just about figure it out, though not correctly.

But the contention of conspiracy theorists is that none of this is conceivable; that it's so unlikely that men trained to recognize when a building is likely to collapse, familiar with the well-known tendency of buildings to collapse due to major fire damage, whose lives depend on not being inside the building when it collapses, assisted by engineers whose special expertise is to assess when a building is likely to collapse, might actually have made a reasonable assessment that a building would collapse, that any such assessment can only be seen as evidence of nefarious doings. If it were a group of conspiracy theorists who made a successful prediction of this type, based on the track record of the predictions of conspiracy theorists I'd be inclined to agree; but we're talking about intelligent, competent people here.

Dave

 

[traxy]

did you read the reddit post I linked earlier? The surveyor's transit could have just picked up insignificant warping of the perimeter from the fires. Does not and can not explain the collapse that happened.

I was unaware that there was such a thing as "insignificant warping" of a burning 47 story building.

Your statement begs the question, at what point does that warping become "significant"?

 

[carlitos]

For sure if there is a super-secret conspiracy that kills thousands of people and nearly wrecks our economy, the truth will be uncovered on reddit.

 

[The Big Dog]

For sure if there is a super-secret conspiracy that kills thousands of people and nearly wrecks our economy, the truth will be uncovered on reddit.

... on a truther only reddit..... that brags about not having to do physics.... and has astute and well sourced claims like the surveyors transit "could" have picked up "insignificant warping."

Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Deputy Chief Peter Hayden:

 

[pgimeno]

I was unaware that there was such a thing as "insignificant warping" of a burning 47 story building.

Your statement begs the question, at what point does that warping become "significant"?

"WTC7 warped in the transit in much the same way that buildings don't".

With apologies to Douglas Adams.

 

[MicahJava]

Ron DiFrancesco has been adequately dealt with, but a Google search for "Carol Martin 9/11 fireball" turned up nothing other than your post. However she is listed on Linked In. I suggest that if you are interested in pursuing this, you should contact her directly. Better get there before the NWO assassination team arrives.

Carol Martin mentioned it in a TedX Talk: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niJJHZ7cjvo&t=14m12s

"...I was on the west side highway when I saw the first tower fall to the ground. And I kept going, and got around by west street, and there's ash on the ground, and there are firefighters and I show them my ID and one of the firefighters said 'just walk down the middle of the road, because there's falling stuff, and there were stretchers, but nobody was on them, and paramedics waiting.

And that's when as I'm walking down I feel the ground rumble. And the firefighter ahead of me turns around, screams 'run'. I could see a fireball come out of the base of the building as- and probably the ignition of jet fuel- as the building began to collapse. But you don't have time to look at those things. I turned, I fell, he grabbed me by my waist, threw me on my feet, and we ran, and he had the foresight to spot another building that had like a marble overhang, and he slammed me against it, and he covered my body with his. And I'll never- I could feel his heart banging my back bone because it was pounding so hard..."

 

[Dave Rogers]

So she didn't think it was an explosion.

Dave