Merged General Holocaust denial discussion Part IV

Saggy said:
This is an example of a preposterous (no need to list the reasons) prima facie absurd degenerate lie that the hoaxers can't produce at the drop of an inconvenient fact. It's like you need a Kuwait incubator hoax? No problem, they have an endless supply. That is the holohoax.
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Is there any lie that isn't degenerate? What's degenerate about it?
 
Saggy said:
This is an example of a preposterous (no need to list the reasons) prima facie absurd degenerate lie that the hoaxers can't produce at the drop of an inconvenient fact. It's like you need a Kuwait incubator hoax? No problem, they have an endless supply. That is the holohoax.
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You make it too easy, Saggy.

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/12-20-45.asp

Also, IMT, Blue Series, vol XXIX:

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How are you coming with Krzepicki and Rabinowicz?
 
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Saggy said:
This is an example of a preposterous (no need to list the reasons) prima facie absurd degenerate lie that the hoaxers can't produce at the drop of an inconvenient fact. It's like you need a Kuwait incubator hoax? No problem, they have an endless supply. That is the holohoax.
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We would all be greatly appreciative if you would engage in factual discussion rather than endless low information spamming of buzzwords.
 
LeoMajor said:
We would all be greatly appreciative if you would engage in factual discussion rather than endless low information spamming of buzzwords.
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Just Saggy's sophistic method for putting across more ad hominem attacks - relying on adjectives coupled with a refusal to engage in the substance of what we post. The reader is meant to be left with the feeling, in this case, that I'm a preposterous, degenerate liar - whilst Saggy gets himself off the hook without addressing a single supposedly absurd lie ("no need to list the reasons" - in fact, an actual debate/discussion depends on "listing the reasons" and paying attention to the evidence).
 
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LemmyCaution said:
Just Saggy's sophistic method for putting across more ad hominem attacks - relying on adjectives coupled with a refusal to engage in the substance of what we post. The reader is meant to be left with the feeling, in this case, that I'm a preposterous, degenerate liar - whilst Saggy gets himself off the hook without addressing a single supposedly absurd lie ("no need to list the reasons" - in fact, an actual debate/discussion depends on "listing the reasons" and paying attention to the evidence).
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Sounds like pigeon chess to me, with you as the chess player!!
 
Saggy said:
This is an example of a preposterous (no need to list the reasons) prima facie absurd degenerate lie that the hoaxers can't produce at the drop of an inconvenient fact. It's like you need a Kuwait incubator hoax? No problem, they have an endless supply. That is the holohoax.
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Saggy, since a new chapter of this discussion has started, can I repeat my request. You have posted many witnesses to the murder of Jews, Gays, Socialists, the handicapped, the Roma etc. that the National Socialist Government of Germany from 1933 to 1945 took action against. I would say they tried to exterminate them as they saw them as Untermensch but I understand you have a different viewpoint. People who know more about this than I do have challenged the witnesses you have brought forward either for their veracity or for your interpretation of the value of their evidence. The point is, the witnesses have been produced and their value can be judged. So could I ask you please, name your witnesses for the survival of millions of Jews, hundreds of thousands of Roma and thousands of political opponents and handicapped and gay people who disappeared between the years 1933 and 1945 but who you and your fellows assert were merely moved on and survived. One witness whose value everyone can evaluate. Your expressions of incredulity prove nothing except your own lack of ability in researching History. I believe I can say that as a university graduate in History and the Social Sciences. Try providing some evidence and you may further your case somewhat. Given your previous behaviour I don't expect a response to this, reasonable or otherwise, but it behoves those of us who are genuinely interested in real history to behave better than you and try to allow you to show that your take on events has some reason. I am not holding my breath though.
 
Parsman said:
One witness whose value everyone can evaluate.
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There are, of course, cases of resettlement or expulsion of large groups of people from a country or region (in this context, failed efforts like the Nazis' Nisko project come to mind - but there are others, for example, within the USSR during this period). Should Saggy finally respond (!) to your query, I will be asking him about the range of evidence, using these other, known cases as models, for what he claims.

Of all the questions and challenges Saggy has dodged, I agree with your pushing this one to the front of the queue. Second IMO is his unwillingness to respond to examples of witnesses we've given him to "test" his claim that no witnesses to the genocide have any credibility.
 
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Let's have a look at the industry's latest promoted degenerate liar ... Edith Eger ...

Being sent to a concentration camp at 16 taught Edith Eger ‘to find joy within’

A8051MD.jpg


You can read the list of idiocies in the article, but they left out one of the best, recall Venezia helping his mother into the gas chamber, Bomba giving a haircut to his mother just before she was to be gassed, Weisel's story about a Jew killing his father for a scrap of bread, well, what idiotic degenerate lie does Edith have to compete with that? Let's see ...

I condemned my mother to the gas chamber with one wrong word to Dr Death':
 
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To be a little less cryptic - sorry - a single witness is not enough, to answer questions about supposed relocation of the Jews, just as a single witness is not enough for robust answers to any of the questions we raise here - here is what I had in mind in mentioning the range of evidence which should exist were a resettlement of the Jews carried out by the Nazis during 1942-1944.

Looking at actual, historical population relocations - ones that occurred during WWII, during the period we are interested in - we have planning and execution documents; business and bureaucracy transaction records; testimonies from authorities, those moved and observers; population studies; inventories; news reports; health reports; registration and census counts; etc. that enable us to answer basic questions about most of the following aspects of such operations:

* Planning and participants, feasibility studies
* Communication plan and distribution, briefings, bureaucratic participation
* Identification of groups to be moved
* Where relocated groups were to be moved from, numbers involved
* Deliberations, preparations relative to relocation places/sites, transactions as to land etc
* Reception preparations and processes including housing and infrastructure
* Disposition of property of relocated people, luggage permitted/taken with them
* Authorities in charge of relocation, transports, and reception
* What happened at the deportation locations
* Actual dates of relocation operations, arrival dates
* Conditions of journey
* Routes of transports and mode/means of transportation; arrangement for transport
* Registration of newcomers, census data, demographic composition, language issues, etc
* Authorities in charge of relocation site
* Conditions in new location on arrival
* Living arrangements – rentals, purchases, construction, furnishing
* Food and other basic supplies – on arrival, longer term
* Coordination with local authorities, implication for local government (citizenship etc)
* Economic factors – skills of relocated population, jobs and income in new home, etc
* Communication (postal etc) of relocated population to relatives, friends, etc
* News stories and public notice of relocation
* Problem solving and management of relocation process by authorities in charge
* Reactions of local authorities/agencies and population to newcomers
* Long term description of new settlements – where these people ended up in the long run

Any account of the supposed resettlement of the Jews proposed by deniers will need to be at least as comprehensive and will need to cite a range of evidence.

(The above list was drawn from reading I've done about the Nisko reservation action carried out by Nazi authorities in 1939-1940; the large-scale Soviet deportations of "disloyal" population groups to Siberia during 1941 prior to Barbarossa; and movement of Soviet citizens - mostly Jews - into the Caucasus from Ukraine and the Crimea but also from as far away as Moscow.)
 
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Saggy said:
Let's have a look at the industry's latest promoted degenerate liar ... Edith Eger ...
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Popular newspapers, least of all the Daily Mail, are not scholarly sources. Ms Eger's recollections are not used a single time, for example, in the Auschwitz 5 volume history. Nor in any other study of Auschwitz I've read. So if you wish you can subtract her testimony from all the scholarly studies (and sources) I've read and which are the basis for my conclusions - without changing any of this one jot.

The same is true for every one of these recent recollections you post about.

But why do you keep posting about recollections no one else has used to support the case for the mass murder of the Jews - and refusing to comment on the witnesses we have named as pertinent?
 
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LemmyCaution said:
Just Saggy's sophistic method for putting across more ad hominem attacks - relying on adjectives coupled with a refusal to engage in the substance of what we post. The reader is meant to be left with the feeling, in this case, that I'm a preposterous, degenerate liar - whilst Saggy gets himself off the hook without addressing a single supposedly absurd lie ("no need to list the reasons" - in fact, an actual debate/discussion depends on "listing the reasons" and paying attention to the evidence).
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One gets the impression that he dosen't even read replies at this point.
 
The resident denialist loves his CT's, here is his latest, about "the massive secret government running the US".

Denialism has been reduced to a runt litter of CT lovers along with a few Nazi apologists and anti-Semites who can only post their filth on a very few forums.
 
Saggy said:
Let's have a look at the industry's latest promoted degenerate liar ... Edith Eger ...

Being sent to a concentration camp at 16 taught Edith Eger ‘to find joy within’

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/A8051MD.jpg[/qimg]

You can read the list of idiocies in the article, but they left out one of the best, recall Venezia helping his mother into the gas chamber, Bomba giving a haircut to his mother just before she was to be gassed, Weisel's story about a Jew killing his father for a scrap of bread, well, what idiotic degenerate lie does Edith have to compete with that? Let's see ...

I condemned my mother to the gas chamber with one wrong word to Dr Death':
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Entire families and communities were wiped out by the Nazis, Saggy. What you are blathering about being "degenerate lies" is actually a common experience. Plenty of survivors were the only ones from whole families or communities to remain alive.

What research have you done to establish this lady is a liar? Have you researched if she was actually registered as a prisoner at Auschwitz? What transport she arrived on? If her mother was registered? If it's such a lie that she was not registered but selected to go to the gas chambers, surely you'll be able to find evidence won't you, Saggy?
 
Saggy said:
Summarize the evidence LC, so I can get an idea of whether or not the link is worth following.

Or, is the 'evidence' so pathetic that it isn't worth summarizing?
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I can't help you if you can't read.

The discussion relies on a number of German documents, each of which it summarizes, concerning the disposal methods, transactions, and labor involved in dealing with the corpses of those gassed in the Chelmno action. Hans covers location of the graves, the dimensions of the pits, the use of chlorinated lime to treat the buried corpses, the number of corpses involved in first part of 1942, the problem of corpse decomposition and odor, orders for and transportation of the chlorinated lime, open-air incineration of the corpses starting in July 1942 and the construction and use of unique furnaces, the SS involved in the incineration including Blobel, fuel for incineration, Aktion 1005 and linkages with Auschwitz, bone crushing and equipment for bone crushing of remains of corpses after incineration, and disposal of the final ashes produced by the incineration/crushing process. All this is, as I noted, supported by German documents.

Since I read your links and don't rely on you to summarize them when you choose not to, I must tell you I find your request and childish behavior annoying.

Reading the piece will take you 15-20 minutes, not much of a burden for someone who claims this evidence doesn't exist. If you choose not to read Hans' piece and the accompanying documents, you will safeguard your ignorance of all this.
 

OK, I clicked on the link, and I'm glad I did, I always like to keep up with Paul Blobel, one of the major figures in the hoax, and probably the most absurd .... so let's see what he was up to in this episode ....

"In the second half of July 1942, the "SS Sonderkommando Blobel" obtained a portable flame thrower unit from the SS-Cavalry at the Waffen-SS training camp Heidelager/Debica (Document 55⤻), and probably thermite grenades as well. While Sonderkommando Kulmhof had already started the incineration of corpses "independent of Blobel's activity" [34] , his own Sonderkommando used the mass graves in Kulmhof as test site for finding a more convenient and rapid method of body disposal. The treatment of the corpses with the flame thrower did not yield a satisfactory result though. [35] Blobel's commando also tried to burn out the Northern part of mass grave no. 2 in Figure 2 with thermite grenades. As a result of the violent thermal reaction, the nearby trees caught fire and about 2 hectares of the forest camp were burnt. [36] The reports on the blasting of corpses might be a reference to this thermite trial as well. [37] The aisle of destruction caused by the forest fire is pictured in an aerial photo of January 1945 (Figure 3).


Figure 3: Aerial photograph of the forest camp of January 1945 (courtesy of Patrick Montague). Encircled in orange the area burnt by the forest fire after Blobel's trial to destroy the corpses in mass grave no. 2 with thermite grenades in summer 1942. Also visible are the three clearings of the mass grave and cremation site.

After his failed attempts to destroy the corpses inside the mass graves, Blobel must have realized that the body disposal has to follow the tedious practice of Sonderkommando Kulmhof to take out the corpses from the trenches and incinerate them with wood and gasoline on pyres constructed on iron beams in pits. [38]"

First he tried to incinerate the bodies in the graves using a flame thrower, and then by blowing them to bits with thermite. Too bad he didn't use his tried and true method, which he described in his hoax 'confession' ...

"After the top had been removed the bodies were covered with inflammable material and ignited. It took about two days until the grave burned down to the bottom. I myself observed that the fire had glowed down to the bottom. After that the grave was filled in and the traces were now practically obliterated."

A little surprising I suppose is that apparently the Nazis decided to 'disappear' 100,000 bodies even before the Katyn discovery, just because of the smell? Did I read that correctly?

Also, there is the matter of the weapons of war, real, and fictional, here we have real weapons of war, actual arrowheads from the Battle of Thermopylae, 480BCE

52ed1fddded134a20777759747be4f2a.jpg


but for phony weapons of war, i.e. the hoax 'gas vans' from 1940AD , there are no photos.

In the final analysis either the Nazis took extraordinary measures to disappear the bodies, because of the smell, or it's all just a pack of lies from the Jews. In either case the result is the same, as far as the physical evidence is concerned, it's just as if it never happened.
 
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