nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[Delphic Oracle]

Am I the only one who sees other hospital staffers involved? Am I hallucinating?

Why is this assertion that the hospital didn't help her at all (her complaints about campus police excepted) still getting asked without looking into it further? What were their positions/roles at the hospital?

They were on her side, backing her up, even offering comfort as she was being cuffed, continuing to press their position on other officers as she was taken to the car, etc.

Let's see if there's even a molehill to make a mountain of, first?

 

[quadraginta]

Am I the only one who sees other hospital staffers involved? Am I hallucinating?

Why is this assertion that the hospital didn't help her at all (her complaints about campus police excepted) still getting asked without looking into it further? What were their positions/roles at the hospital?

They were on her side, backing her up, even offering comfort as she was being cuffed, continuing to press their position on other officers as she was taken to the car, etc.

Let's see if there's even a molehill to make a mountain of, first?

Maybe I can't make it out from the video.

Which one of them was her supervisor? You know, the one who stepped in and told the cop that the nurse was doing her job correctly and the cop needed to deal with them and leave her alone to continue doing her job?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Maybe I can't make it out from the video.

Which one of them was her supervisor?

I don't know. I'm asking why people are wailing and gnashing teeth about the hospital "leaving her hanging in the wind" or "giving her no support at all."

You know, the one who stepped in and told the cop that the nurse was doing her job correctly and the cop needed to deal with them and leave her alone to continue doing her job?

Oh, this is one of those things where people project how they would have been more abrasive and confrontational like a good white knight.

Because that totally works with the police...

 

[Jim_MDP]

I don't know. I'm asking why people are wailing and gnashing teeth about the hospital "leaving her hanging in the wind" or "giving her no support at all."

It appears there was a potential legal issue over an agreed upon SLC PD/Med Center policy for over an hour, and no one with authority from the Admin staff showed up to resolve it.

Whatever her position and responsibilities... after five minutes of back and forth with the cops, this wasn't her battle to fight.

Let the cops and Admin take it off the ward floor, and hash it out (it's not like it appears to have been very time sensitive).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

So again I ask, who are the other hospital personnel (who do engage with the officers at several points) in the videos?

This reminds me of when my uncle was depressed/abusing substances/borderline suicidal. Family members not dealing with day-to-day drama would start in with "well then why didn't you..." whatever.

The answer, of course, is "because he's being an irrational prick and it was going to end badly in any case, so get off my back."

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

I don't know who the guy in the white shirt was that was trying to intervene. I only know Wubbels had a supervisor on her phone. That could have been the ED supervisor who was at home, or the house supervisor who was somewhere else in the hospital.

If the guy in the white shirt was a house supervisor, he wasn't acting like one. A normal house supervisor would have taken over talking to the cop.

Keep in mind ED Liaison is generally a management position. But the house supervisor would be over the ED staff with the exception of the ED department head which would be a higher level position.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Cops understand hierarchy. They would recognize the supervisor as a boss, with lawyers and other bosses on speed dial, and they would understand that taking on a senior representative of a major institution would have serious repercussions.

I agree. It's a cultural thing. Hospital house supervisor is bureaucracy, Ns Wubbels is a person.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Am I the only one who sees other hospital staffers involved? Am I hallucinating?

Why is this assertion that the hospital didn't help her at all (her complaints about campus police excepted) still getting asked without looking into it further? What were their positions/roles at the hospital?

They were on her side, backing her up, even offering comfort as she was being cuffed, continuing to press their position on other officers as she was taken to the car, etc.

Let's see if there's even a molehill to make a mountain of, first?

No one was involved that stepped in between Wubbels and the cop. A supervisor would normally do that. It's not uncommon for someone to confront a nurse. Typical protocol is a higher level person steps in between.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I don't know. I'm asking why people are wailing and gnashing teeth about the hospital "leaving her hanging in the wind" or "giving her no support at all."



Oh, this is one of those things where people project how they would have been more abrasive and confrontational like a good white knight.

Because that totally works with the police...

For the record, I am speaking with extensive experience in the hospital setting. Spent the first couple decades of my career as a nurse in multiple hospitals in multiple roles in multiple states.

 

[Jim_MDP]

I don't know who the guy in the white shirt was that was trying to intervene. I only know Wubbels had a supervisor on her phone. That could have been the ED supervisor who was at home, or the house supervisor who was somewhere else in the hospital.

If the guy in the white shirt was a house supervisor, he wasn't acting like one. A normal house supervisor would have taken over talking to the cop.

Keep in mind ED Liaison is generally a management position. But the house supervisor would be over the ED staff with the exception of the ED department head which would be a higher level position.

Thank you. I don't know what to call who and don't want to downplay her position and responsibilities... but being in a pissing match with a cop, over verbiage, is beneath her.

That's what bureaucrats are for.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Police can make just about anything they want into obstruction of their investigation, so the idea of just physically stepping between an officer and the nurse is a bit bold of a move to expect given the current concerns about police getting violent at the drop of a hat.

Given the referred to hour of talking before, who's to say that one of them didn't do that and get barked at to step aside?

If an officer wants to detain you, your boss coming down to talk about it doesn't un-detain you...

There's a moment where her coworkers are reiterating what the nurse had also just stated, the detective states (and points), "she is the one telling me no." There's a bit of petulance to it, but it's also the fact that cops who are muscling/coercing someone have a plan and they picked a target in the organization they believe to be a "weak link." I'm sure it's not a huge stretch to imagine why they would keep the pressure specifically on her and actively diminish the role of others (even her superiors) in supporting her, demonstrating by proxy to her that they can even cut her support system away. Always redirect everything back to the target you're trying to break.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... If an officer wants to detain you, your boss coming down to talk about it doesn't un-detain you......

Just like police have a culture, nurses have a culture.

The supervisor steps in, the nurse is no longer interacting with the cop. What's the cop going to do? Tell the supervisor to back away, he's arresting the nurse?

No.

There's a moment where her coworkers are reiterating what the nurse had also just stated, the detective states (and points), "she is the one telling me no." There's a bit of petulance to it, but it's also the fact that cops who are muscling/coercing someone have a plan and they picked a target in the organization they believe to be a "weak link." I'm sure it's not a huge stretch to imagine why they would keep the pressure specifically on her and actively diminish the role of others (even her superiors) in supporting her, demonstrating by proxy to her that they can even cut her support system away. Always redirect everything back to the target you're trying to break.

At that point Wubbels is still the individual directly interacting with the cop. The others are secondary to the interaction.

The house supervisor would normally in such a situation, step in and take over the exchange with the cop. He would no longer be talking to Wubbels.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Just like police have a culture, nurses have a culture.

The supervisor steps in, the nurse is no longer interacting with the cop. What's the cop going to do? Tell the supervisor to back away, he's arresting the nurse?

No.

Yes. Well, the supervisor, anyways. "Step back sir, I'm asking her. If you keep interfering with my questioning of her, I will arrest you for obstruction of legal process, now step back" (maybe a hand on a taser for emphasis).

We're in a thread about a cop arresting someone for absurd reasons, after all.

At that point Wubbels is still the individual directly interacting with the cop. The others are secondary to the interaction.

We don't know whether they were just plain complacent or they had been previously intimidated into submission, though.

The house supervisor would normally in such a situation, step in and take over the exchange with the cop. He would no longer be talking to Wubbels.

In the cop's mind, the house supervisor doesn't get to tell them when they can and can't speak to someone if they deem it pertinent to their "investigation."

Let's make it clear, >I< agree with you that what you're describing is the sensible way it should happen.

I just don't taken it as a given that the cop sees it that way and the automatic presumption that since he's still badgering the nurse the only explanation is that nobody else tried to shift the attention onto themselves. I'm saying that there may well have been attempts to intervene, but they failed. That doesn't mean nobody tried.

ETA: The point right after he takes her outside and cuffs her, I thought the two admins were pretty bold just having him boxed into a corner like they did. I was more expecting the other officers to back them away and keep her isolated, but they seemed about as off-balance as everyone else at the sudden escalation.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Yes. Well, the supervisor, anyways. "Step back sir, I'm asking her. If you keep interfering with my questioning of her, I will arrest you for obstruction of legal process, now step back" (maybe a hand on a taser for emphasis).

This wouldn't happen, it just wouldn't. Wubbels wasn't being questioned, she was asked to either give him access to the patient or to draw blood for him.

House supervisors are nurses (and more are female than male but I digress). They can draw blood.

... In the cop's mind, the house supervisor doesn't get to tell them when they can and can't speak to someone if they deem it pertinent to their "investigation." ...

I get where you are going with this but it just wouldn't happen that way.

Imagine a pharmacy tech refusing to give a cop a patient's prescription records. The pharmacist steps in. No cop is going to tell the pharmacist to back out of it, he's dealing with the tech.

Crazy cop in the wrong or not, that's just not realistic.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

This wouldn't happen, it just wouldn't. Wubbels wasn't being questioned, she was asked to either give him access to the patient or to draw blood for him.

House supervisors are nurses (and more are female than male but I digress). They can draw blood.

I get where you are going with this but it just wouldn't happen that way.

Imagine a pharmacy tech refusing to give a cop a patient's prescription records. The pharmacist steps in. No cop is going to tell the pharmacist to back out of it, he's dealing with the tech.

Crazy cop in the wrong or not, that's just not realistic.

A cop storming after a nurse like a lunatic when she isn't doing anything wrong isn't realistic, either.

It's real.

When they want to put the squeeze on a specific person, they will bat away anyone trying to interfere (it reinforces the "nobody can save you from me" effect).

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

A cop storming after a nurse like a lunatic when she isn't doing anything wrong isn't realistic, either.

It's real.

When they want to put the squeeze on a specific person, they will bat away anyone trying to interfere (it reinforces the "nobody can save you from me" effect).

You are ignoring my analogous example, would the cop tell a pharmacist to go away he was dealing with the tech?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You are ignoring my analogous example, would the cop tell a pharmacist to go away he was dealing with the tech?

If the cop felt like the tech would fold more than the pharmacist, yeah I find that credible. Like I said, doing so now puts the tech in the position of feeling like this cop has their life in the palm of his hands.

I just don't see why 3 people making the same point wasn't "enough support from the hospital" but oh, if a 4th person had waltzed in with a commanding attitude and said it, then it would have clicked and the cops would have felt quite sheepish and gone back to the station to tell their boss "no dice" without further incident.

Now the campus police? Totally useless.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

If the cop felt like the tech would fold more than the pharmacist, yeah I find that credible. Like I said, doing so now puts the tech in the position of feeling like this cop has their life in the palm of his hands....

That just wouldn't happen.

I'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[quadraginta]

I don't know. I'm asking why people are wailing and gnashing teeth about the hospital "leaving her hanging in the wind" or "giving her no support at all."



Oh, this is one of those things where people project how they would have been more abrasive and confrontational like a good white knight.

Which "people" are you referring to?

Is this an attempt at being insulting and dismissive?

You should try harder. It isn't very good.

Because that totally works with the police...

Apparently the hospital's senior management disagrees with you. (Maybe they are projecting how they would have been more abrasive and confrontational like a good white knight.)

As was pointed out in an earlier post in this thread:

Payne's firing from his paramedic job comes a day after the University of Utah Hospital announced a new protocol: Nurses will no longer be allowed to interact with law enforcement agents.
"I need to make sure this never, ever, ever happens to another one of our care providers again," said Margaret Pearce, chief nursing officer at the hospital.
Instead of interacting with nurses, law enforcement officers will be directed to health supervisors "who are highly trained on rules and laws," and those interactions won't take place in patient care areas, officials said.
The new protocol was implemented two weeks after the incident, and so far, 2,500 nurses have been trained in it, Pearce said.

Of course, since they are just projecting, all that can be ignored and dismissed.

 

[bonzombiekitty]

Why, so they could arrest the supervisor instead?

Worst case scenario: Yes. The nurse should not have had to deal with the cop. Once the cop continued to pressure the nurse, someone higher up in the hierarchy should have been physically present and had the nurse continue her regular duties while he/she dealt with the cop. Arguing with a cop about the law and hospital policy is not the nurses job - that's an issue for administration to deal with.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

What part of a hospital policy compels and binds the cop to obey it?

They didn't abide by the agreement they had already made.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk