General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[LemmyCaution]

As you ignore the Jager Report which documents the atrocities of the Nazis.

Except, in all frankness, I linked him to posts where I discussed the Kramer letter!

But he has ignored so much we've posted that we should be ignoring his spam until he ponies up . . .

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Oh, and this has been bugging me for a while, Saggy.
What exactly is a "degenerate lie"? I know you got this from Uncle Adolf's Big Book of Fascist Buzzwords, as you frequently drop this into your posts like you were taught, but perhaps you could explain what you think it means, and also if a non-Jew can tell a degenerate lie?
Thanks.

 

[Saggy]

posts I linked you to - which you still evidently refuse to read -

From the post ... "B-B became a "vital cog" in the continuing drive to exterminate prisoners through labor"

How freaking absurd does it have to be before you think .. wait a minute, this is too much? Silly question I know, but don't expect anyone to read such crap.

 

[Saggy]

Oh, and this has been bugging me for a while, Saggy.
What exactly is a "degenerate lie"?

We are used to heroic lies where a person claims qualities/abilities/accomplishment that are not true. Then there are swindle lies, I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. These are all commonplace, a person lies to his/her advantage. A degenerate lie is ostensibly to the liar's disadvangate. A degenerate lie is unusual and unexpected, a person falsely claims to be a degenerate, a weakling, a helpless victim of a crime that did not occur, so when Schlomo Venezia tells us he helped his mother into the gas chamber, that is a degenerate lie, or when sonderkommandos, like Y. Wiernik, tell us they herded there former friends and relatives into the gas chambers, Bomba gives his wife a haircut in the gas chamber, etc, these are degenerate lies The whole holohoax is one gigantic degenerate lie.

Get it now?

 

[LemmyCaution]

From the post ... "B-B became a "vital cog" in the continuing drive to exterminate prisoners through labor"

How freaking absurd does it have to be before you think .. wait a minute, this is too much? Silly question I know, but don't expect anyone to read such crap.

I note your total lack of support for what you post - aside from your own incredulity. Blatman, whom I summarized, says this about 1944 because it was then that B-B assumed new roles in the camp system and in the supply, movement, and treatment of KL inmates. I also cited the Thierack memo on extermination through labor. (The link is dead now but the reference is to 682-PS Thierack's notes on discussion with Goebbels, 14 September 1942, concerning groups to be exterminated,)

And if you don't read what is posted, we have kind of come to the limiting factor for discussion, eh.

 

[LemmyCaution]

Get it now?

No, I am looking for the term describing when someone calls people liars without offering evidence to support his accusation.

 

[Saggy]

I note your total lack of support for what you post -

The claim was prima facie absurd, refuting it doesn't need additional support. Why in hell would a nation desparately in need of laborers in its crucial war industries work them to death? The whole holohoax is preposterous, there is not a shred of physical evidence, just and endless repetition of lies.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

We are used to heroic lies where a person claims qualities/abilities/accomplishment that are not true. Then there are swindle lies, I've got a bridge for sale in Brooklyn. These are all commonplace, a person lies to his/her advantage. A degenerate lie is ostensibly to the liar's disadvangate. A degenerate lie is unusual and unexpected, a person falsely claims to be a degenerate, a weakling, a helpless victim of a crime that did not occur, so when Schlomo Venezia tells us he helped his mother into the gas chamber, that is a degenerate lie, or when sonderkommandos, like Y. Wiernik, tell us they herded there former friends and relatives into the gas chambers, Bomba gives his wife a haircut in the gas chamber, etc, these are degenerate lies The whole holohoax is one gigantic degenerate lie.

Get it now?

As degenerate does not mean a weakling or a helpless victim of a crime, no I do not get it.
Plus, even if it did mean that, you are still using it wrongly. It is not the lie itself that is degenerate, it is the liar. Perhaps the translation from the original German was inaccurate.
Do you have any links to a Holocaust victim describing themselves as a degenerate? Any of those people you mentioned, for example?

 

[Saggy]

Do you have any links to a Holocaust victim describing themselves as a degenerate? Any of those people you mentioned, for example?

It is commonplace for holocaust victims to describe themselves as degenerates. The sonderkommandos who helped their mothers, sisters, wives, into the gas chambers are self-described degenerates, that includes both Venezia bros., Y. Wiernik, A. Bomba, one survivor bashed in the heads of Jewish babies to prevent further pain, M. Gray, Wiesel in his book about him and his father describes another Jew who kills his father for a scrap of bread. It's standard practice. Who would lie about such a thing?

How about all the Jews that, knowing they were to be gassed, hopped on the trains with no resistance whatever? How about the Jewish town councils who put them on the trains? If there were any truth to this endless BS they would all be classified as degenerate cowards at best.

 

[LemmyCaution]

The claim was prima facie absurd, refuting it doesn't need additional support. Why in hell would a nation desparately in need of laborers in its crucial war industries work them to death? The whole holohoax is preposterous, there is not a shred of physical evidence, just and endless repetition of lies.

Oh, I thought assertions needed to be supported with evidence - and evidence had to be explained. I never figured one could say whatever one wished, dismiss whatever one wants as "absurd," and just believe whatever one chooses. I do appreciate the clarification in denier methodology.

To reiterate, extermination through labor was not a feature of the Holocaust per se; it pertained to non-Jewish prisoners. Specifically, Thierack recorded use of the term "extermination through labor" to refer to how "asocial" enemies of the Reich would be dealt with - a penal term, then "annihilation through labor" presumably to extract the last labor from people consigned to death. More generally, by 1944, the term, as Blatman used it, referred to the consequences of the lethal KL conditions, in which workers were used as slaves, and the concomitantly high mortality rates in these conditions (along with measures to weed out those no longer able to work). This second, more general sense of the term has to do with empirical issues, described in many places including the posts I linked to, and the soaring mortality in the camps at that time; Blatman referred in the passage I used to the specific role of Bergen-Belsen in this situation.

 

[LemmyCaution]

. . . The sonderkommandos who helped their mothers, sisters, wives, into the gas chambers are degenerates, that includes both Venezia bros., Y. Wiernik, A. Bomba . . .

That's a value judgment - but I am glad to see you accepting the evidence for the gas chambers and for some of what SK members were forced to do. (Note: Wiernik and Bomba were not SK members.)

 

[Border Reiver]

The claim was prima facie absurd, refuting it doesn't need additional support.

Like your contention that the missing Jews were resettled?

 

[LemmyCaution]

How about all the Jews that, knowing they were to be gassed, hopped on the trains with no resistance whatever?

How do you know that Jews being transported to camps where murders were carried out were aware of their intended fate? Do you think that the SS told them? Do you think that the SS were unarmed, friendly pussycats? Do you further imagine that Jews never resisted?

How about the Jewish town councils who put them on the trains?

How do you know that Jewish councils - not town councils FSS - were aware of where Jews from their ghettos and other localities were being taken? What is the invariable best response to a determined force holding all the cards including having superior power to yours? What did other groups do confronted with Nazi genocidal actions?

If there were any truth to this endless BS they would all be classified as degenerate cowards at best.

Judenrat members and others have indeed been heavily criticized for saving their own skins, willful blindness, poor strategic thinking, and collaboration. By your silly logic, this proves the genocide.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

It is commonplace for holocaust victims to describe themselves as degenerates. The sonderkommandos who helped their mothers, sisters, wives, into the gas chambers are self-described degenerates, that includes both Venezia bros., Y. Wiernik, A. Bomba, one survivor bashed in the heads of Jewish babies to prevent further pain, M. Gray, Wiesel in his book about him and his father describes another Jew who kills his father for a scrap of bread. It's standard practice. Who would lie about such a thing?

How about all the Jews that, knowing they were to be gassed, hopped on the trains with no resistance whatever? How about the Jewish town councils who put them on the trains? If there were any truth to this endless BS they would all be classified as degenerate cowards at best.

Then it will be easy for you to link to evidence for this. Unless, that is, you accept that this is an accurate description of your methodology:

Oh, I thought assertions needed to be supported with evidence - and evidence had to be explained. I never figured one could say whatever one wished, dismiss whatever one wants as "absurd," and just believe whatever one chooses. I do appreciate the clarification in denier methodology.

Spot on from where I'm sitting.
How about it, Saggy? Just one Holocaust victim describing themselves as a degenerate. We can look at how commonplace this is later.

 

[Saggy]

How do you know that Jews being transported to camps where murders were carried out were aware of their intended fate?

Well, obviously they weren't aware that they were going to be gassed. Now ain't that weird. According to Goldhagen everybody in Germany knew about the gasssings, but not the Jews! Even after years of gassings they still didn't know. Aushcwitz was a major industrial center with Krupp, Siemens, Farben, etc., factories with Jewish labor with constant interaction with the outside world, and still the Jews didn't know. Do you see how absurd this is ????? Of course not

I'll show you ..... Yad Vashem has a section devoted to the only photographic evidence of the holohoax at Auschwitz, google the Auschwitz Album, you'll see this photo ..

Caption? "Last Moments before the gas chamber"

That's the sum total of the photographic evidence for the killing of six million, or four million per the sign at the Auschwitz gate! How freaking absurd can it get ???????????????

 

[Jeffk 1970]

The claim was prima facie absurd, refuting it doesn't need additional support. Why in hell would a nation desparately in need of laborers in its crucial war industries work them to death?

Germany used millions of foreign workers during the war and not all of them were Jews. Germany utilized POWs, French, Italian, Poles, Soviet citizens, etc. for labor, this included their use in war industries.

Do you not know anything about the use of foreign labor, Saggy? Surely there has to be a YouTube video about this somewhere. That's where you learn all of your history, right?

 

[Jeffk 1970]

Well, obviously they weren't aware that they were going to be gassed. Now ain't that weird. According to Goldhagen everybody in Germany knew about the gasssings, but not the Jews!

Did you actually read the book, Hitler's Willing Executioners?

Granted, it's been awhile but I don't remember seeing that bit. Certainly Germans were aware of the deportations of German Jews.

Even after years of gassings they still didn't know.

After several months of the various Jewish actions in Poland, Polish Jews became aware of the fate of Jews sent to Chelmno and Treblinka. This information was smuggled out and the British and Americans became aware of it in the Summer of 1942. The British were aware of the various Einsatzgruppen and their activities through radio intercepts.

Auschwitz

Saggy, learn how to spell "Auschwitz." My spell check corrected it for you.

was a major industrial center with Krupp, Siemens, Farben, etc., factories with Jewish labor with constant interaction with the outside world, and still the Jews didn't know. Do you see how absurd this is ????? Of course not

You are talking about Auschwitz III, or Auschwitz-Monowitz. The gas chambers were located in Auschwitz II, or Auschwitz-Birkenau. There were no gas chambers in Monowitz, nor would there be any reason for the employees posted there to know about them.

Inevitably the word did get out.

That's the sum total of the photographic evidence for the killing of six million, or four million per the sign at the Auschwitz gate!

Hey, Saggy? Where on that original sign does it say "Jews?"
Saggy, you must have very poor "googling" skills if that's the only picture you found.

How freaking absurd can it get ???????????????

That depends, how long do you plan on posting here?

 

[Belz...]

That's the sum total of the photographic evidence for the killing of six million

Once again: you ignoring the evidence doesn't make it go away.

 

[LemmyCaution]

According to Goldhagen everybody in Germany knew about the gasssings, but not the Jews!

Goldhagen's book is not IMO very good and is clouded by his own preconceptions. Anyway, citation? I don't recall reading that in Goldhagen's book, but I read it 20 years ago or so.

I can assure you that if Goldhagen alleges that, he is wrong.

In a minority of cases, Jews were aware of, or figured out, what the Germans intended. And, FSS, there were resistance (the Grodno transport to Treblinka is a good example) and rebellions, as you well know.

Even after years of gassings they still didn't know. Aushcwitz was a major industrial center with Krupp, Siemens, Farben, etc., factories with Jewish labor with constant interaction with the outside world, and still the Jews didn't know. Do you see how absurd this is ?????

It is not at all "absurd." Some Jews were selected for labor at camps at some distance, several km away, at Monowitz, from the killing center. So what?

Again, I asked you for your evidence that Jews being brought to the camps knew about their fate. See, I ask you, "How do you know that Jews being transported to camps where murders were carried out were aware of their intended fate? " and instead of telling me, you ask me what I find absurd. Please answer - don't ask me my thoughts.

I'll show you ..... Yad Vashem has a section devoted to the only photographic evidence of the holohoax at Auschwitz, google the Auschwitz Album, you'll see this photo ..

You are unaware of, e.g., the SK photos? Why am I not surprised?

Caption? "Last Moments before the gas chamber"

So what?

That's the sum total of the photographic evidence for the killing of six million, or four million per the sign at the Auschwitz gate! How freaking absurd can it get ???????????????

Actually, no, it isn't, if you think so, you're wrong. Also, the number of gassing victims at Auschwitz, as you've been told time and again, was under 1 million - not going to rehash the sign.

But there are, as noted, other photos. And, really, what makes you think that the Germans allowed random people to make photographs of their murder operations?

 

[Dash80]

You got that right !

The British doc. is an absolute authority on Belsen. The typhus epidemic is fully documented. Btw, this is a pic from the doc was taken by the Brits at Belsen as they entered the camp ...

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/FEgmdtq.jpg[/qimg]

Mark Weber is always a reliable source:

Bergen-Belsen Camp: The suppressed story

Kramer's letter -

English Translation of a Letter to Gruppenführer Richard Glücks from Hauptsturmführer Josef Kramer Dated 01 March 1945

The conditions in camps like Belsen was a war crime. Stuffing people into camps knowing full well you cannot provide basic care and needs for them is criminal. Thankyou for showing us what utter bastards the Nazis were, Saggy.

You do realise this is how the Nazis treated people throughout the war, don't you? Long before you can point the finger at Allied bombing?

How about the millions of Soviet POWS murdered, starved or dead of disease by the spring of 1942?

Hundreds and thousands of murders and deaths from starvation, disease and hard labour of Jews in ghettos and camps; even before the deportations to death camps?

The Euthanasia program which began in 1939?