Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[uke2se]

If a nazi/kkk/fascist person were on the ground being beaten by clubs, would that be justified?

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No.

And yes, I've seen the image you're frantically looking for.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If a nazi/kkk/fascist person were on the ground being beaten by clubs, would that be justified?

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Given how a lot of those protestors got away by simply taking off their nazi iconography and not associating with them, there seems to be no evidence that that would happen. But yes beating people and sending them to the hospital is wrong. But of course always ignore that it was the nazis actually putting people in the hospital.

Anything to keep the focus off the trump supporting nazis.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

No.

I'm really confused now.

And yes, I've seen the image you're frantically looking for.

Do us both a favor a drop the arrogant presumption that you read minds.

I have no interest in a picture or which one would be relevant. Your own positions are what I'm trying to resolve. When is it okay or not ok to violently prevent nazis/kkk/white supremacists to organize and promote their views in public?

ETA: is there a certification program to be an approved nazi puncher?

 

[uke2se]

I'm really confused now.



Do us both a favor a drop the arrogant presumption that you read minds.

Come on, we both know that you were trying to set up a gotcha. It was really transparent.

I have no interest in a picture or which one would be relevant. Your own positions are what I'm trying to resolve. When is it okay or not ok to violently prevent nazis/kkk/white supremacists to organize and promote their views in public?

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Preferably when they come armed, attacking peaceful protesters. It's not ok to beat someone laying on the ground with clubs. It's not ok to destroy private property to vent your anger. It's not ok to beat up on cops doing their jobs.

Better?

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Given how a lot of those protestors got away by simply taking off their nazi iconography and not associating with them, there seems to be no evidence that that would happen. But yes beating people and sending them to the hospital is wrong. But of course always ignore that it was the nazis actually putting people in the hospital.

I'm not ignoring it.

Or else I could say you chastising me when there's Nazis out there is distracting and playing into the Nazis hands.

It's nanny-nanny-boo-boo for grownups.

Anything to keep the focus off the trump supporting nazis.

Not bumbling around stupidly unaware of how to pull off resistance that doesn't hand power the political cover to start literally slaughtering dissenters is my contribution to stopping the Nazis (instead of unwittingly enabling them).

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[ponderingturtle]

I'm not ignoring it.

Or else I could say you chastising me when there's Nazis out there is distracting and playing into the Nazis hands.

It's nanny-nanny-boo-boo for grownups.



Not bumbling around stupidly unaware of how to pull off resistance that doesn't hand power the political cover to start literally slaughtering dissenters is my contribution to stopping the Nazis (instead of unwittingly enabling them).

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You have gone along quite well by keeping the focus off the murderous terrorists. This has been a clear press victory for the nazis. They can kill people and everyone wants to talk about the broken windows instead,

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Come on, we both know that you were trying to set up a gotcha. It was really transparent.

Still don't know what the picture you're on about is.

It's not a "gotcha" I'm actually wanting those on the side of fiddling with civil rights to explain in concrete terms when it's ok to punch Nazis and when it's not.

So far, despite the pronouncements phrased as "group x cannot be allowed free speech," all I'm seeing is literal, imminent physical danger self-defense. That already exists.

Stop reading hostility into everything that doesn't immediately agree with you. If you propose an idea and questions and challenges come at you then you'd better either a) have answers, b) be willing to find answers (and make your idea stronger, or c) complain about and make pejorative declarations about those asking questions.

Preferably when they come armed, attacking peaceful protesters. It's not ok to beat someone laying on the ground with clubs. It's not ok to destroy private property to vent your anger. It's not ok to beat up on cops doing their jobs.

Better?

All of which are already the case.

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[caveman1917]

Not bumbling around stupidly unaware of how to pull off resistance that doesn't hand power the political cover to start literally slaughtering dissenters is my contribution to stopping the Nazis

"start"

(instead of unwittingly enabling them).

 

[caveman1917]

Stop reading hostility into everything that doesn't immediately agree with you.

Hadn't you admitted, back surrounding the inauguration protests, that you have a practice of going to left-wing demonstrations pretending to be a journalist, whilst cooperating with the state so as to use your pictures/videos explicitly with the goal of trying to get leftists sent to correctional forced labour facilities or deported? IIRC you specifically said doing so regarding Antifa, so yeah, that doesn't seem hostile at all.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You have gone along quite well by keeping the focus off the murderous terrorists.

You can discuss murderous terrorists as you please, I'm not stopping you.

Take responsibility for yourself.

At the same time, if liberals point out that foreign imperialism feeds into terrorism and terrorist recruiting narratives, are they then "distracting" from the murderous terrorists?

This has been a clear press victory for the nazis. They can kill people and everyone wants to talk about the broken windows instead,

Don't give them broken windows to talk about, then (aka stop drone bombing children).

The scale is different, but it won't stay that way if both sides laud "taking the gloves off."

 

[caveman1917]

aka stop drone bombing children

Good idea, let's just drone bomb the neo-nazis without further ado. Neither liberals nor conservatives should have a problem with that, like they do with punching or beating them.

 

[Meadmaker]

This is a case where one person is on the ground being beaten by clubs. There's nothing that can justify that.

I'm constantly amazed at how people can twist the reality of what happened.


I agree that nothing can justify that, but in fact, there were two people on the ground being beaten by clubs. You knew that didn't you?


Caveman apparently thinks that's ok, since one of them is a Nazi.

Most of this ruckus was captured on videos available on youtube. You can see Corey Long and a Nazi doing a tug of war with the Nazi flagpole, but I haven't seen how that started. You can see Deandre Harris hit the Nazi with a club. You can see a man in a pink shirt swing a staff at the Nazi. You can see Deandre Harris knocked to the ground when that pink shirt fellow backs up into him. You can see a Nazi fall to the ground, and two men beat him with clubs. You can Deandre Harris start to get up, and get kicked by a Nazi. Then, a few other Nazis take swings at Harris on the ground, until another Nazi yells "Let him up", and Harris staggers away. I don't know what happened to the Nazi on the ground, but it looked like he was unconscious when he hit the ground, before he was beaten.

This violence wasn't one sided.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

The thing is, none of these nazis/supremacists/etc seem to be advocating violence - at least as far as I've seen. And the Antifa people are advocating violence. That's a big difference to me.

 

[ponderingturtle]

The thing is, none of these nazis/supremacists/etc seem to be advocating violence - at least as far as I've seen. And the Antifa people are advocating violence. That's a big difference to me.

They tend to be pretty vague about how the ethnic cleansing will be done though. And of course you are discounting all the terrorists their organizations spawn. But killing a bunch of blacks in church, or shooting indians in a bar are in no way violent acts.

I mean look how many terrorist acts Stormfront got tied to before it got shut down.

 

[jimbob]

I'm constantly amazed at how people can twist the reality of what happened.


I agree that nothing can justify that, but in fact, there were two people on the ground being beaten by clubs. You knew that didn't you?


Caveman apparently thinks that's ok, since one of them is a Nazi.

Most of this ruckus was captured on videos available on youtube. You can see Corey Long and a Nazi doing a tug of war with the Nazi flagpole, but I haven't seen how that started. You can see Deandre Harris hit the Nazi with a club. You can see a man in a pink shirt swing a staff at the Nazi. You can see Deandre Harris knocked to the ground when that pink shirt fellow backs up into him. You can see a Nazi fall to the ground, and two men beat him with clubs. You can Deandre Harris start to get up, and get kicked by a Nazi. Then, a few other Nazis take swings at Harris on the ground, until another Nazi yells "Let him up", and Harris staggers away. I don't know what happened to the Nazi on the ground, but it looked like he was unconscious when he hit the ground, before he was beaten.

This violence wasn't one sided.

The violence wasn't one sided. However, I tend to believe the eyewitnesses who said that the Nazis were attacking nonviolent protesters.

Once they are doing that, it is justified to use violence against them.

If they are leaving their allowed route, and standing outside a synagogue shouting Nazi slogans, it is justified to use violence against them - even if they haven't done anything else but attempt to intimidate (i.e. threaten) people.

I also have an asymmetry in what I consider justifiable by the Nazis and by anti-Nazis. Nazism is inherently a violent ideology, and all the Nazis are promoting ethnic cleansing. Anti-Nazis are aimed at stopping them.

Believing that someone should be killed because of their race - vile but allowed.

Saying that people should be killed because of their race - vile and often can be intimidating, and it shouldn't be allowed when it is intimidating, which is often.

Some of the Anti-Nazis are bad. Some hold repugnant ideologies like Stalinism. However most do not.

 

[Meadmaker]

The thing is, none of these nazis/supremacists/etc seem to be advocating violence - at least as far as I've seen. And the Antifa people are advocating violence. That's a big difference to me.

Each side in their public statements appears to say that they are simply preparing for the violence that is going to be initiated by those rascals on the other side.

That's why they have to bring weapons, because they are surely going to be assaulted and they have to be prepared to defend themselves.

 

[jimbob]

Each side in their public statements appears to say that they are simply preparing for the violence that is going to be initiated by those rascals on the other side.

That's why they have to bring weapons, because they are surely going to be assaulted and they have to be prepared to defend themselves.

Except that the Nazis were actively threatening the synagogue, and they actively attacked the church group that was only holding hands in their path. *They* were no threat. Especially the Quakers.

In short, the Nazi claims ring hollow.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Except that the Nazis were actively threatening the synagogue, and they actively attacked the church group that was only holding hands in their path. *They* were no threat. Especially the Quakers.

In short, the Nazi claims ring hollow.

But if they were in danger of the quakers shunning them. That calls for self defense.

 

[jimbob]

But if they were in danger of the quakers shunning them. That calls for self defense.

I know - they might try being reasonable at them, and maybe even offer them flapjack.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

They tend to be pretty vague about how the ethnic cleansing will be done though.

Fair point. They rarely go into detail on this, even though it's one of the most important parts of their plan.

Each side in their public statements appears to say that they are simply preparing for the violence that is going to be initiated by those rascals on the other side.

Not so much with the leftist groups. They actively say they want to stop fascism "by any means necessary", by which they mean including violence. There is even a group called BAMN here in the Bay Area.