nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[Bob001]

.....
The incident was abnormal as hell, usually police don't consider hospital procedures to be obstruction of their investigation. Most cops would just not see that as a time or place to assert their authorité. It would be like asserting one's cop authority on a cop from another department. IOW this was not the usual cop vs citizen, it was much closer to cop vs colleague.
.....

The thing that's most chilling about this video is that the nurse calmly reads from a document stating official policy, then she gets her supervisor on the phone to confirm it. At that point, if the cop had a beef with anybody it wasn't the nurse. But she was easiest to grab.

This led me to wonder: If you observe cops out of control, who could you call? These were local Salt Lake City cops. Do you call the county sheriff? The state police? Do you dial 911 and ask for more cops? Demand the watch commander (or whoever the shift boss is called)? This all happened in front of a large group of people, some of whom were hospital security officers who probably had limited police powers of their own. But everybody was helpless. She apparently has been critical of the hospital for not protecting her. Could they have done anything?

 

[ddt]

The thing that's most chilling about this video is that the nurse calmly reads from a document stating official policy, then she gets her supervisor on the phone to confirm it. At that point, if the cop had a beef with anybody it wasn't the nurse. But she was easiest to grab.

This led me to wonder: If you observe cops out of control, who could you call? These were local Salt Lake City cops. Do you call the county sheriff? The state police? Do you dial 911 and ask for more cops? Demand the watch commander (or whoever the shift boss is called)? This all happened in front of a large group of people, some of whom were hospital security officers who probably had limited police powers of their own. But everybody was helpless. She apparently has been critical of the hospital for not protecting her. Could they have done anything?

One of them was a University cop. This was in the University Hospital, so it happened on his terrain, not on that of the city cop. I'd think he formally had the authority to stop the city cop.

 

[ddt]

And I was in no way suggesting that it ought to be this time either.

I was responding to Nessie's post concerning their failure to grasp the error of the position they were taking.

Pointing out that such failure is systemic is not the same as condoning it.

Fair enough.

The conclusion should be that not only the cop on the scene, but his supervisor and the whole department should be taken to task for it. Has the supervisor already been suspended and investigated?

 

[Bob001]

One of them was a University cop. This was in the University Hospital, so it happened on his terrain, not on that of the city cop. I'd think he formally had the authority to stop the city cop.

That's an interesting point. Apparently the university officers are fully state-certified, armed cops. They might have been able to say "This is private property. You have no right to be here." Would have been an interesting discussion.
https://dps.utah.edu/message-from-the-chief/

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

... Could they have done anything?

The hospital nursing house supervisor, any hospital that size would have one, should have taken over for her. I don't know who the guy was in the white shirt, there was discussion the supervisor was on the phone, maybe that was the ED supervisor who was at home.

This went on long enough, the house supervisor would normally show up and become the spokesperson for the hospital.

 

[quadraginta]

That's an interesting point. Apparently the university officers are fully state-certified, armed cops. They might have been able to say "This is private property. You have no right to be here." Would have been an interesting discussion.
https://dps.utah.edu/message-from-the-chief/

They could arrest each other?

 

[Giordano]

The thing that's most chilling about this video is that the nurse calmly reads from a document stating official policy, then she gets her supervisor on the phone to confirm it. At that point, if the cop had a beef with anybody it wasn't the nurse. But she was easiest to grab.

This led me to wonder: If you observe cops out of control, who could you call? These were local Salt Lake City cops. Do you call the county sheriff? The state police? Do you dial 911 and ask for more cops? Demand the watch commander (or whoever the shift boss is called)? This all happened in front of a large group of people, some of whom were hospital security officers who probably had limited police powers of their own. But everybody was helpless. She apparently has been critical of the hospital for not protecting her. Could they have done anything?

Absolutely- in a whole string of crazy perhaps the most crazy was the city cop failing to understand that his "beef" was not with the nurse and that he had to take the dispute up with higher hospital authorities. And I do feel that the hospital failed abysmally to support their nurse. I don't expect (nor would I wish) the hospital police to defend her with drawn weapons but they should have taken the city cop aside and gently explained to him that he needed to leave the nurse alone and to have his supervisors contact her supervisors (not that it would have changed the fact his demand for a blood sample was illegal). I bet having a "fellow" LEO gently intervene would have defused the city cop's anger and irrationality.

 

[crescent]

This led me to wonder: If you observe cops out of control, who could you call? These were local Salt Lake City cops. Do you call the county sheriff? The state police? Do you dial 911 and ask for more cops? Demand the watch commander (or whoever the shift boss is called)? This all happened in front of a large group of people, some of whom were hospital security officers who probably had limited police powers of their own. But everybody was helpless. She apparently has been critical of the hospital for not protecting her. Could they have done anything?

One of them was a University cop. This was in the University Hospital, so it happened on his terrain, not on that of the city cop. I'd think he formally had the authority to stop the city cop.

She's stated that's why she went public with the video. She already had an apology from the SL City cops, but the University cops have not yet admitted to any wrong. She believes that the Uni cops failed in their duty to protect her - she called them over to that part of the hospital specifically because she felt threatened by the detective and wanted the Uni cops to protect her.

Her beef is as much with the University cops as it is with the Detective and his department.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

University police are largely useless in my experience. They enforce the hell out of expired parking meters and some departments excel at botching sexual assault allegations, but those are the exceptions that prove the rule.

 

[jimbob]

Yes, I know you think that. But you're wrong. There's a complete disconnect between what you want and what would actually happen.

Yes, I want cops to regard themselves as public servants, not s hated subgroup under siege. I also want capable, ambitious people to want to join the police, not near unemployables, which is what BobTheCoward's proposal would lead to.

 

[jimbob]

In Scotland, police attending the scene of a RTA must, in order

1 - protect the scene of the accident from any further accidents. You do not want another car crashing.
2 - assess what resources are needed and report to the control room
3 - only once 1 and 2 are completed (which can take some time) will they then render any first aid and the instruction is to go to anyone not making any noise. If someone is screaming, they are still alive and breathing.

To be fair that is pretty standard first aid protocol.

DR ABC

 

[erlando]

As appalling as the arrest is I think the real villain is the supposedly "good cop" that tries all kinds of two-tongued talk to convince the nurse when she is put in the car.

"If the evidence is illegal it will be thrown out anyway, so there's no problem is there?"

That's not how proper collection of evidence works!

 

[Nessie]

But as this case has now clearly demonstrated taking action as this police officer did was entirely legal and proper. Precedent has been set. There is now less likelihood of an officer begin charged and facing court over anything similar in future than there was before this case happened. Therefore as I said you've drawn the wrong conclusion - this case although not nice for the police officer has made it less likely any police officer will be treated in such a manner so a police officer should - if rational - now know better what is legal.

....

Considering no training is given and there is no recognised technique, what is to stop other methods being tested in court? Why, indeed, test any of them in court? Is it not an police training issue? The cop twice stopped the prisoner from committing suicide. The first was a push with the hand, the second was a push with the foot. He was only charged with the push with the foot. Why not test the push with the hand in court?

The standard for assault is there is mens rea and an attack (or threat of). Since it is the legal duty of the police to preserve life and there was no doubting it was a suicide attempt, that shows mens rea was not present. As for an attack, the physical act took place during a suicide attempt and it resulted in no injury and it reduced the injuries the prisoner was inflicting on himself. That is not an attack in any shape or form.

The whole case is as dodgy as hell and it it should make all police and others worried. A no crime is dressed up to look like a crime, a technique that clearly works is still tested in a court and COPFS are happy to go along with it.

What is to say that Police Scotland are still unhappy and if another cop tries the same thing, they will not report it?

 

[Darat]

Considering no training is given and there is no recognised technique, what is to stop other methods being tested in court? Why, indeed, test any of them in court? Is it not an police training issue? The cop twice stopped the prisoner from committing suicide. The first was a push with the hand, the second was a push with the foot. He was only charged with the push with the foot. Why not test the push with the hand in court?

The standard for assault is there is mens rea and an attack (or threat of). Since it is the legal duty of the police to preserve life and there was no doubting it was a suicide attempt, that shows mens rea was not present. As for an attack, the physical act took place during a suicide attempt and it resulted in no injury and it reduced the injuries the prisoner was inflicting on himself. That is not an attack in any shape or form.

The whole case is as dodgy as hell and it it should make all police and others worried. A no crime is dressed up to look like a crime, a technique that clearly works is still tested in a court and COPFS are happy to go along with it.

What is to say that Police Scotland are still unhappy and if another cop tries the same thing, they will not report it?

Because the matter has already been tested in a court.

I really can't understand why you think this will make it less likely for a police officer to take physical action when trying to prevent someone from killing themselves.

This actual case makes it less likely a police officer will even be investigated never mind charged in similar circumstances in the future. So for the police officer on the front line they can be more confident in taking such action in future as it has been deemed legal and proper to do so.

 

[Darat]

As appalling as the arrest is I think the real villain is the supposedly "good cop" that tries all kinds of two-tongued talk to convince the nurse when she is put in the car.

"If the evidence is illegal it will be thrown out anyway, so there's no problem is there?"

That's not how proper collection of evidence works!

Unfortunately police officers face a strange dichotomy - meant to be honest yet they are also expected to act dishonestly to do their job. It is not surprising to me that many a police officer has problems straddling the dichotomy.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

Unfortunately police officers face a strange dichotomy - meant to be honest yet they are also expected to act dishonestly to do their job. It is not surprising to me that many a police officer has problems straddling the dichotomy.

A big problem is the politicians are the leash-holders. Even for reasons of public safety/order (theoretically), they are directed to numerous quasi-legal things to make the public outcry go away. This creates a degree of permissiveness. The internal oversight and union politics (as much as I support unions...) create a shield since these "approved" irregularities need an escape hatch for the ones carrying it out or you quickly run out of volunteers.

People who are "team players" *cough* find doors opening in their careers. So they then set up the same kind of system for when their boss says "the mayor/chief/city legal counsel is chewing my ass/telling me we have liability exposure, fix this!"

 

[ponderingturtle]

The reason the video was made public in the first place was because Nurse Wubbles felt that the University Police that were standing around should have protected her from ever being arrested. She said she approached the police department and got an apology and a commitment to educate the force regarding the laws but that the University Police department were less accommodating. In her own words, " They put on the opposite teams jersey"during the incident in the ER.

I have to say I agree with her on this point. It's one thing to be arrested by a city police officer that is working in ignorance but to be abandoned by your own co-workers working for the same organization, then having them deny responsibility or fail to recognize a failure of duty, that truly is a slap in the face.

That is crazy, cops are never going to interfere with another officer violating the law and a citizens rights.

 

[ponderingturtle]

One of them was a University cop. This was in the University Hospital, so it happened on his terrain, not on that of the city cop. I'd think he formally had the authority to stop the city cop.

But it is well established that you have no right to sue the police for not doing their job, this is just more about how cops have to protect other cops from the law and justice.

You think anyone else could illegally detain the nurse and have the cops stand their with all their digits up their own anuses?

 

[Nessie]

Because the matter has already been tested in a court.

I really can't understand why you think this will make it less likely for a police officer to take physical action when trying to prevent someone from killing themselves.

This actual case makes it less likely a police officer will even be investigated never mind charged in similar circumstances in the future. So for the police officer on the front line they can be more confident in taking such action in future as it has been deemed legal and proper to do so.

I get what you are saying and hope it is true. The problem is there is no specific, accepted way for police officers to stop a suicide, so if one method is to be tested in court, then so should the rest.

 

[Nessie]

But it is well established that you have no right to sue the police for not doing their job.....

That is absolutely not true in the UK, where neglect of duty can be both a criminal and civil matter and result in the police being sued.