Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[Delphic Oracle]

So what do you tell people when they are defending nazi's? We have lots of people here trying to claim that going to an event organized by nazi's to promote nazi values and white nationalism doesn't mean we can associate people with the causes they were explicitly there to support.

That is literally defending nazi's. How do you respond to that?

In my experience any public political event over 100 is inundated with 5x as many people who never heard of your event, but got a facebook invite about something else and would love to discuss their Theory of Everything with you (and anyone else's ear they can twist).

I think the ease with which people let their emotions lead them to hasty generalization warrants a review of their skeptic credentials.

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[phiwum]

Are you saying Harris only has himself to blame for being beaten up by Nazis while lying on the ground?

Seems to me that Meadmaker has said no such thing. He simply gave a fuller account of the events that led up to the beating (at least as he knows them from watching a few videos).

 

[ponderingturtle]

In my experience any public political event over 100 is inundated with 5x as many people who never heard of your event, but got a facebook invite about something else and would love to discuss their Theory of Everything with you (and anyone else's ear they can twist).

This would mean all rallies and protests are meaningless. So where are the people who are not white nationalists and found themselves surprised to be at a white nationalist rally? Everyone who showed up at the earlier KKK rally for the same purpose clearly had nothing to do with the KKK.

 

[Belz...]

I would have thought condemning Nazis would be the easiest thing in the world for most of the poster here, and yet what we see for the most part is "yes, but..." posts.

See what you did? You managed to get people into the awkward position of defending the rights of Nazis by suggesting that we should use violence against them for holding despicable political views.

 

[phiwum]

Many did. Defended him by saying "oh, but that counter protester with the "flamethrower" was bad too". That creates a false equivalency, even if the person saying it - like you - might feel that they are different degrees of 'bad', that is not evident by their argument. Thus, we have a false equivalency. This is extremely common around here, because we have so many posters who pride themselves at being "centrist" and think that means that the truth always lies in the middle of two extreme positions.

I believe Delphic Oracle is right. The problem here lies with the reader, not with anything she's said.

Two distinct events:

(1) A person uses an aerosol can to spray flames toward an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

(2) A person fires a gun at the feet of an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

Both actions are threatening. Depending on circumstances, both are illegal. The second one is much worse, deserving a reasonably serious sentence, given what we know. The first could also deserve to be tried, but this probably falls under the prosecutor's discretion.

This is not nuance. This is not hard to understand. If you can't help thinking that anyone who says it's not good to spray fire towards others in a threatening manner is a nazi-sympathizer, then the problem is on your end.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

This would mean all rallies and protests are meaningless. So where are the people who are not white nationalists and found themselves surprised to be at a white nationalist rally? Everyone who showed up at the earlier KKK rally for the same purpose clearly had nothing to do with the KKK.

I'd say one can hardly claim innocence in regards to the tiki-torch posse, absolutely.

The events of the day in question, however, become more chaotic. There was no definitive "these people are over here and those people are over there" situation after a while. Simply standing in the wrong spot and being distracted from your immediate surroundings for 30 seconds can suddenly get you fingered as "with them." It's happened to me when I was lost in my camera frame for too long.

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[ponderingturtle]

See what you did? You managed to get people into the awkward position of defending the rights of Nazis by suggesting that we should use violence against them for holding despicable political views.

A lot of people seem to think that there were a lot of non nazi's at the nazi rally.

 

[phiwum]

In my experience any public political event over 100 is inundated with 5x as many people who never heard of your event, but got a facebook invite about something else and would love to discuss their Theory of Everything with you (and anyone else's ear they can twist).

I think the ease with which people let their emotions lead them to hasty generalization warrants a review of their skeptic credentials.

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Nah, even if I showed up without realizing it was a white nationalist event, it wouldn't take long to figure it out and get the hell out of there. I find it very implausible that more than a couple of folk didn't realize the white nationalist theme and hung around for a love of Civil War statues.

 

[The Don]

In my experience any public political event over 100 is inundated with 5x as many people who never heard of your event, but got a facebook invite about something else and would love to discuss their Theory of Everything with you (and anyone else's ear they can twist).

...and who march alongside you chanting "The Jews will not replace us" ?

I also guess we've attended different public political events. In my experience the vast majority of people who were there (not 17% as you suggest) are there to support/counter-protest the subject of the event.

 

[Belz...]

What I argue against is this seemingly subconcious need to always add false balance to the discussion when discussing political issues.

That's funny, because I'd argue against this seemingly subconcious need for ideological purity by standing entirely on one side of an issue or the other, and treating any dissent as meaning the other person is entirely on the other side.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'd say one can hardly claim innocence in regards to the tiki-torch posse, absolutely.

The events of the day in question, however, become more chaotic. There was no definitive "these people are over here and those people are over there" situation after a while. Simply standing in the wrong spot and being distracted from your immediate surroundings for 30 seconds can suddenly get you fingered as "with them." It's happened to me when I was lost in my camera frame for too long.

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You are moving the goal posts though. The first was that people showing up to protests and such by and large can not be assumed to support the cause of the protest. Now it is that this was chaotic and mixed up, in large part though the intentional actions of the nazi's. Yet they seemed to keep organized and identified enough that there are no claims of people there for the rally to be anything other than white nationalists.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

...and who march alongside you chanting "The Jews will not replace us" ?

I also guess we've attended different public political events. In my experience the vast majority of people who were there (not 17% as you suggest) are there to support/counter-protest the subject of the event.

This was being chanted universally across dozens of city blocks and scattered pockets of violent exchanges? Did everyone have their team colors on?

My experience covers progressive civil unrest in the past 10-15 years. Yeah, my overall take is its a damn 3-ring circus.

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[Belz...]

Many did.^[who?]

Fixed.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

You are moving the goal posts though. The first was that people showing up to protests and such by and large can not be assumed to support the cause of the protest. Now it is that this was chaotic and mixed up, in large part though the intentional actions of the nazi's. Yet they seemed to keep organized and identified enough that there are no claims of people there for the rally to be anything other than white nationalists.

Or maybe those are multiple reasonable explanations that don't contradict each other and not moving goalposts.

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[ponderingturtle]

This was being chanted universally across dozens of city blocks and scattered pockets of violent exchanges? Did everyone have their team colors on?

Who could possibly have expected anti Semites to show up at a white nationalist event! Shocking.

But clearly a lot of the torch marchers must have been there solely because of a facebook invite, you were clear that 80% of them had to be there just because of the invitation and not for their support of the cause. Or is that changing now?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Or maybe those are multiple reasonable explanations that don't contradict each other and not moving goalposts.

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Then provide them. You first claimed that events that fit into tiki torch rally get a lot of people showing up who do not support the cause it is for. Then why wouldn't you excuse the majority of those in the tiki torch rally? They must only have gotten a facebook invite and everyone loves tiki torch marches, so they show up with out knowing it was a white nationalist even organized by nazi's.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I mean I know its a leap, but maybe hugely contentious situations that descend into chaos and violence have more than 1 input variable and are full of mistaken impressions and confusing signals.

NAH!

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[The Don]

My experience covers progressive civil unrest in the past 10-15 years. Yeah, my overall take is its a damn 3-ring circus.

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And that experience tells you that less than 20% of those who attend any large-scale public political event are doing so because they support the event and the remaining 80%+

got a facebook invite about something else and would love to discuss their Theory of Everything with you (and anyone else's ear they can twist).

I think you're indulging in hyperbole here.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

And that experience tells you that less than 20% of those who attend any large-scale public political event are doing so because they support the event and the remaining 80%+



I think you're indulging in hyperbole here.

I'll credit the right with better message discipline, the left not so much ;9.

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[Meadmaker]

This was being chanted universally across dozens of city blocks and scattered pockets of violent exchanges? Did everyone have their team colors on?

My experience covers progressive civil unrest in the past 10-15 years. Yeah, my overall take is its a damn 3-ring circus.

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I have been thinking that the best response to the Nazi rally would have been to rent a calliope or two, and play circus music wherever they go. I'll bet "Marching Through Georgia" would sound mighty fine on a calliope.

I will admit, it wasn't my idea. A couple of years ago during the South Carolina confederate flag business, a guy with a sousaphone followed the racists there down the street, playing a goofy tune. That's really the correct response to Nazis. Upchurch....? We need you!