Brexit: Now What? Part III

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GnaGnaMan said:
UK position papers:
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/article-50-and-negotiations-with-the-eu

EU position papers:
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/publications/draft-eu-position-papers-article-50-negotiations_en
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For giggles, read through the documents on nuclear material. They're not long:
EU position paper (4 pages)
UK position paper (6 pages, 2 of which are front pages).

The EU paper may seem shorter from the page count, it doesn't have two pages front matter, a shorter font and it actually contains policy goals, such as:
II. Equipment used to provide safeguards
(1) On the date of withdrawal, the Community should transfer ownership to the United Kingdom of equipment and other property related to the provision of safeguards under the Treaty located in the United Kingdom. The following conditions should then be
met:
a. The United Kingdom should reimburse the Community for this transfer;
b. The sum to be reimbursed should be based on the value assigned to this property in the consolidated accounts of the Union;
c. The sum to be reimbursed should be included in the United Kingdom's obligations under
the single financial settlement.
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That's clear: you keep the equipment you have, and pay the value that's on the books. The UK policy paper is utterly silent on this issue.

The UK policy paper, OTOH, is full of fluff like this:
1. The Treaty establishing the European Atomic Energy Community (Euratom) provides the basis for the UK’s cooperation with the Euratom Community on civil nuclear issues. It includes the provision of safeguards arrangements for non-proliferation of nuclear materials, cooperation in nuclear research and development, mobility of workers and trade in the nuclear sector and wider nuclear regulatory cooperation.
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Sheesh, Sherlock, who are you telling this? The EU is Euratom. Or this:
13. It is important to agree the ownership arrangements for special fissile material to provide the necessary legal certainty related to these materials.
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Sheesh, yet another big revelation. Are we writing a policy paper with concrete proposals or are we writing a TODO-list what should be in it? :rolleyes:
 
ddt said:
That's a lie. The EU has compiled 20-odd reports with their positions on the various dossiers. The three Brexiteers have put to paper - nothing. You can't negotiate with someone if they don't clarify their position first.
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Also this is being spun as some sort of masterplan by David Davis, who is looking less impressive as time goes on (and he was hardly stellar at the start)

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017...xit-its-not-chaos-but-constructive-ambiguity/

The Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union tells the Today programme the Brexit process so far has gone “incredibly well”. He said the lack of clarity over what the government plan is intentional, calling it “constructive ambiguity”.
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Even more bizarrely, Davis’ ‘strategy’ flies in the face of his own sage advice; as he wrote in his 1988 book, How to Turn Round a Company:

“Understanding clearly the intent of the other side is the first step to a mutually successful negotiation and quite often turns a straight win or lose style of negotiation into something more creative and mutually beneficial.”
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ddt said:
You're welcome. I found it already strange that you would post an empty link.

BTW, others may take note that that EU link is the first page of three containing policy documents. :)
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Yes, see post #2484.

I am continuously astounded by the incompetence of the UK side... combined with smug idiocy (for example the "to coin a phrase, the clock is ticking" comment" by David, 3-day week, Davis)
 
ceptimus said:
The UK government have published several papers giving their vision for Brexit. Unlike the EU, the UK negotiators haven't demanded that the EU agree to all UK demands before anything else can be discussed.
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Yes there have been several sources quoting a government vision for Brexit, shame they all disagree with one another. As to EU demands they've simply made it clear they won't talk about trade until borders issues are settled, since the Eu are the ones with all the cards in this negotiation of course they are setting the terms

I always maintained, in this thread and its predecessors, that the EU wouldn't negotiate in good faith and that the only reasonable response from the UK would be to walk away - that day draws nearer as the EU refuse to negotiate in a sensible manner.
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We can't have our cake and eat it, so we'll walk away and live on bread and water.

As for labeling what I wrote as 'a lie' - you should retract that assertion.
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Well then prove your statement was true and those 20 EU papers don't exist, you can do it right after you find the missing £350 million a week

The EU have repeatedly stated that they will not negotiate about most issues until their demands in three key areas are met. They expect the UK to agree to paying a huge sum to the EU.
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They expect the UK to honour its debts and pledges


They expect the UK to agree what happens to EU nationals living in the UK (they want the EU court to still override UK law!).
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Funnily enough given the contempt May has shown for our courts I think I would prefer to be under the remit of the ECJ...

They want to settle the Irish border issue. As I said (truthfully) before, the EU basically expect the UK to agree to their demands without knowing what, if anything, the UK will get in return. That's no way to conduct what they laughingly call "negotiations".
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No they want to settle borders before negotiating on trade, the former being rather a prerequisite for the latter. And if the EU find the negotiations laughable, well when you have the likes of May, Johnson and Davis in charge you either have to laugh or cry
 
jimbob said:
Also this is being spun as some sort of masterplan by David Davis, who is looking less impressive as time goes on (and he was hardly stellar at the start)

https://politicalscrapbook.net/2017...xit-its-not-chaos-but-constructive-ambiguity/
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And of course those statements about ambiguity flatly contradict what ceptimus claimed about there being papers laying out the UK vision, in fact the last time he surfaced didn't he support precisely that ambiguity?

ETA: Here we go:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11758507&postcount=1087

This is the sort of biassed drivel we hear from the same people who were insisting that "Britain has not presented its detailed plan in advance of invoking Article 50!" They stupidly believe that one side of a negotiation should submit all its plans in advance while the other side, if it has a plan at all, keeps that plan a total secret.
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So ceptimus as you now claim this:

The UK government have published several papers giving their vision for Brexit.
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I guess you accept at last that May and co. are stupid?
 
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Garrison said:
We can't have our cake and eat it, so we'll walk away and live on bread and water.
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That might be literally the reality if the UK simply crashes out of the negotiations, as ceptimus has been hopefully suggesting.

The UK only produces 54% of the food it consumes and imports 27% from the EU. No more Dutch tomatoes for you! They'll turn stale while the trucks stand in line in Dover waiting for the understaffed customs. And of the Dutch and German and Danish pigs you import, half will die from the stress while waiting at customs and the other half declared unfit for consumption at the slaughterhouse due to increased hormone levels.

Etcetera etcetera.

But hey, everything to achieve that Dunkirk spirit? Has Davis already taken steps to design rationing coupons? :rolleyes:
 
ddt said:
That might be literally the reality if the UK simply crashes out of the negotiations, as ceptimus has been hopefully suggesting.

The UK only produces 54% of the food it consumes and imports 27% from the EU. No more Dutch tomatoes for you! They'll turn stale while the trucks stand in line in Dover waiting for the understaffed customs. And of the Dutch and German and Danish pigs you import, half will die from the stress while waiting at customs and the other half declared unfit for consumption at the slaughterhouse due to increased hormone levels.
Etcetera etcetera.

But hey, everything to achieve that Dunkirk spirit? Has Davis already taken steps to design rationing coupons? :rolleyes:
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The highlighted part - that probably wouldn't be a problem, due to reduced standards.
 
ddt said:
That might be literally the reality if the UK simply crashes out of the negotiations, as ceptimus has been hopefully suggesting.

The UK only produces 54% of the food it consumes and imports 27% from the EU. No more Dutch tomatoes for you! They'll turn stale while the trucks stand in line in Dover waiting for the understaffed customs.
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The food market is global; the alternative is reduced tariffs on imports from say, Morocco:

https://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/analysis/morocco-tomato-exports-eu-rise
 
Aber said:
The food market is global; the alternative is reduced tariffs on imports from say, Morocco:

https://www.oxfordbusinessgroup.com/analysis/morocco-tomato-exports-eu-rise
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True, but we'd need to have a trade deal in place with Morocco - which we do not currently have, we're covered by the EU deal.

I doubt whether our negotiation team has the bandwidth to carry out tens of negotiations in parallel and in any case they cannot start until we have left the EU. No doubt we could be eating food from Morocco in due course but for the decade or so it takes to get a deal in place it's going to be expensive.


edited to add....

Even in a global market things have to go through customs, something that isn't the case for the EU customs union.
 
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In Brexit we seem to have created the cerebral equivalent of one of those Magic Eye pictures I could never see. In order to truly appreciate it's beauty you just need to relax your cognitive capabilities.
 
Pessimists with little imagination are unable to visualize beauty before they get to see it.

When those pessimists also do their level best to stop the beautiful thing from ever being built in the first place it can complicate matters.
 
The Don said:
True, but we'd need to have a trade deal in place with Morocco - which we do not currently have, we're covered by the EU deal.

I doubt whether our negotiation team has the bandwidth to carry out tens of negotiations in parallel and in any case they cannot start until we have left the EU. No doubt we could be eating food from Morocco in due course but for the decade or so it takes to get a deal in place it's going to be expensive.


edited to add....

Even in a global market things have to go through customs, something that isn't the case for the EU customs union.
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The UK can probably copy/paste the existing EU arrangements. Not having the personnel for customs checks only means that checks can't be as thorough. That doesn't have to be bad. It would prevent another Calais jungle, for example, and allow the UK to score some cheap eggs once in a while.
 
ceptimus said:
Pessimists with little imagination are unable to visualize beauty before they get to see it.

When those pessimists also do their level best to stop the beautiful thing from ever being built in the first place it can complicate matters.
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Is that a Mao quote?
 
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