Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[CapelDodger]

Maybe we should just do away with free speech. What's the worst that can happen?

Who can say?

 

[BobTheCoward]

Maybe we can compromise. Ban speech that calls for the genocide of entire races.

Never.

 

[quadraginta]

Yeah, but then a black person born next door......?

Oh, well. No need to overthink it. They surely didn't.

Nope. They just took their army next door and got rid of the ethnic groups they didn't like.

Much like our own homegrown versions want to do.

 

[The Don]

Maybe we should just do away with free speech. What's the worst that can happen?

You end up with some kind of oppressive hell-hole like Germany or the UK where the media is freer, people's right to assembly is less curtailed and democracy is functioning better than in the US ?

 

[Mumbles]

Yeah, but then a black person born next door......?

Oh, well. No need to overthink it. They surely didn't.

Well, as the saying goes...

"First they came for the muslims, and I said 'Hell no!'"

I'm not sure how the US will survive this, but I'm pretty sure it will. Perhaps with a diminished presidency, with much less power. This'd be for the best...

 

[jimbob]

I've just listened to the BBC World Service Witness programme about the Notting Hill Race Riots of 1958

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csv254

The violence only stopped after blacks, especially Jamaicans from Brixton turned up to fight the Teddy boys (who had been running amok for a week, and had been whipped up by Oswald Mosley).

 

[jimbob]

The church down the road from me organized and sponsored a big yard sale, with the proceeds going to the local food bank. They showed up with their bibles and most of them wore their cross necklaces. Some of them even tried to push their beliefs.

Was that a religious event? Or was that a charity event organized and sponsored by a religious organization?

I'm not sure what your point was. A Nazi-organised march is contaminated merely by being organised under the auspices as a Nazi organised march. If it was a "Nazis for vegetarianism" march, anyone marching with it would still be giving approval to the Nazis.

However it wasn't the case. It was a Nazi-organised march to celebrate a white supremacist.

It was a violent Nazi-organised march to intimidate people. They killed someone. They very nearly beat another person to death.

 

[jimbob]

You mean like Sandra Bland? Rekia Boyd?

Or young black men, like Trayvon Martin, or John Crawford III, or Tamir Rice. In those cases people rushed to explain why it was perfectly fine to kill a black guy who was just minding their own business.

No, I absolutely think that the reaction would be weaker had the victim been a black woman, rather than a white woman. And in fact, Id expect that any adverse information would be worked over with a fine comb. Yes, I fully expect that had Heather Heyer been non-white, these same people would be digging through her police records to portray her as an angry criminal. they'd do their absolute best to belittle her.

Again, we watched Ferguson police flat-out attack the black community there, and many here justified it. "Oh, but the Quicky-Mart!" - and never mind that the police attacked the community *before* that QT burned.

Im not even sure why you're objecting. They're perfectly happy to justify murdering a black person, regardless of circumstances. Why would it suddenly change in this case?

Or as liverpoolmiss said on Badscience

Have to say, it's so helpful the murder victim was female, white and pretty, with a tragically dead husband and orphaned adopted kids.

The random lottery of a car attack could easily have meant it was a black man with a troubled past, and a very different story would have played out.

 

[Mumbles]

Well, yes.

But at the same time, I don't wish to downplay this. Her death was horrible.

*but*

I think it's be easier to shrug off, had it been a black guy. For most people.

Her family should be proud.

 

[jimbob]

Well, yes.

But at the same time, I don't wish to downplay this. Her death was horrible.

*but*

I think it's be easier to shrug off, had it been a black guy. For most people.

Her family should be proud.

Indeed.

The highlighted part - I wish you meant "many" . I like to think it is "many" not "most" but I am not sure.

 

[Mumbles]

Umm...because we are talking about a nazi committing murder at a white supremacist march? Bland, Boyd, Crawford, Rice, all killed by police, IIRC? So you suggest that police are actual nazis, and equate tham with Charlotteville? Rice was the kid who went to draw an airsoft pistol on police from his waistband and was shot. Are you seriously comparing that with a freaking nazi deliberately mowing down protestors in his car?

Yes. I will absolutely draw that comparison.

I think that media representation and public sentiment are turning heavily against neo-nazis, and one deliberately murdering a black person at a white supremacist march would fan resentment much, much more, with it's shades of public lynching. The public nature of this killing by a nazi civilian at a march is dramatically different than the (very real) issue of systemic racism in law enforcement.

If anything, media is far too nice on them. We saw Gamergate, we saw people hyped as "dapper" white supremacists. It's time to crush them.

 

[caveman1917]

In the series "Anti-fascist history"

On this day in 1944, the liberation of Paris was completed by the Free French forces and the occupying German troops surrendered. However, the Free French unit which recaptured the city had been ethnically cleansed of black soldiers - who made up nearly two thirds of the Free French army, as US and UK military commanders only allowed the French to liberate the city if they excluded black troops. This is a short account of this travesty
Pictured: Senegalese troops who fought for France as prisoners of war

 

[Mumbles]

Indeed.

The highlighted part - I wish you meant "many" . I like to think it is "many" not "most" but I am not sure.

I meant "most", unfortunately.

I've said this before, but folks won't normally say racist crap to my face. Except for black nationalists. i try to guide people out of that crap.

I can't do that with white nationalists. That's on their family, and their friends. When your "racist uncle" starts spouting nonsense, challenge him. Make folks uncomfortable, if need be.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your analogy is a poor one.

What you should have asked me is whether or not an event organized and sponsored by a church is a church event.

That answer is "yes".

Ahh. Does that then mean that if I participate in a charity event that benefits my community, but was organized and sponsored by a church (therefore, by your definition it's a church event), I am guilty of enabling and/or tacitly supporting religion?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Maybe we can compromise. Ban speech that calls for the genocide of entire races.

You know... I've actually run across far more cries for killing white people than I have for killing any other races.

 

[Giz]

You end up with some kind of oppressive hell-hole like Germany or the UK where the media is freer, people's right to assembly is less curtailed and democracy is functioning better than in the US ?

Didn't expect such a full throated defence of Brexiting UK from you!

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure what your point was. A Nazi-organised march is contaminated merely by being organised under the auspices as a Nazi organised march. If it was a "Nazis for vegetarianism" march, anyone marching with it would still be giving approval to the Nazis.

By your logic then, any event organized by a group is contaminated by whatever characteristic you believe represents that group, and the purpose of the event is completely irrelevant.

Is this a true interpretation of your position?

 

[Beelzebuddy]

Ahh. Does that then mean that if I participate in a charity event that benefits my community, but was organized and sponsored by a church (therefore, by your definition it's a church event), I am guilty of enabling and/or tacitly supporting religion?

If the event was organized and sponsored by a corporation instead, would that be considered advertising?

[ETA] Is it really necessary to split hairs this finely in defense of marching alongside Nazis?

 

[phiwum]

Ahh. Does that then mean that if I participate in a charity event that benefits my community, but was organized and sponsored by a church (therefore, by your definition it's a church event), I am guilty of enabling and/or tacitly supporting religion?

Is participating in a charity event very much like marching with a group of people chanting "blood and soil"?

A charity event is not primarily aimed at spreading a particular message and it was clear that the message of the Charlottesville protest went much farther than "Save this statue!"

Let's turn the situation around. Suppose that you cared about the statue of Lee and wanted it to remain. Would you have been at the protest, having seen the march through campus the night before and the overt white nationalist presence on Saturday? I wouldn't have remained, even if I thought the statue should not be taken down. I would not want to be associated with people chanting Nazi slogans.

On the other hand, I have no problem supporting a charity event at the local church, synagogue or mosque.

 

[Hellbound]

Just another problem with the charity event comparison...

A charity event has a purpose, in and of itself, beyond spreading a particular message. It's goal is to raise money for some cause. It has value beyond any particular message; or more accurately, it's message is given by the cause it raises money for.

The protest march was organized, specifically, to spread a white nationalist message (they flyers advertising it and comments by the organizers make this clear) by white nationalist/supremacist and neo-Nazi groups.

For there to be any comparison, it would be like a church organizing a charity to raise funds for itself. Or to raise money for a charity that gives away bibles. The message in this case was that of the organizing group, not some alternate message that just happened to coincide. And in that case, yes, you're supporting religion if you participate.