Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[Brainster]

My nephew is giving me cause for concern that he is embracing white supremacy. So I looked at his Facebook page. He retweeted some item (meme?) that showed a person with a hammer-and-sickle flag and a person with a swastika flag. (separate photos). The text was something like "Both these idiots have a right to say what they want to say. They're still both ********."

Did the hammer and sickle flag actually come from Charlotte protesters? Next question, does this fall under false equivalence or is it a fair statement?

I'd say your nephew doesn't sound like he's about to go Nazi. The Hammer and Sickle flag almost certainly doesn't come from Charlottesville protesters. Was there any specific mention in the meme of Charlottesville?

As best as I can figure out the anti-demonstration crowd was a mixture of socialists, anarchists, BLM activists and, for some unknown reason, Quakers. I'm sure there were some garden variety liberals in there as well.

I would change the meme, to say that both sides are fools. The Nazis are dopes, and the counter-demonstrators gave them exactly what they wanted--publicity.

Let the Nazis have their march, and make sure to have a strong police presence to ensure the safety of others. But you know how it is; anarchists and BLM activists are unlikely to be willing to rely on the cops.

The bad news is that both sides are probably experiencing a surge in new members as a result of the madness.

 

[The Big Dog]

Not quite the whole story. Kessler applied for his permit to use Emancipation Park for a "Free speech rally in support of the Lee Monument" on May 30, 2017. In addition to the $25 permit fee, he had to obtain a $1 million insurance policy (from Evanston Insurance Company). He also estimated attendance at 400.

The City granted his permit on June 13, 2017, then tried to revoke it (or significantly curtail it) on August 7, 2017, leading to a lawsuit filed on August 10, 2017.

No earlier than July 8 (and probably much later) Walt Heinecke applied for a permit for a counter-protest (with up to 1,000 people) at two parks - one which was three blocks to the East and one which was two blocks to the West of Emancipation Park. This permit was approved on July 31. In examining both permits, it strikes me that Heinecke's permit was rather hastily completed (i.e. incomplete) and basically rubber-stamped. There is no evidence that he even paid a fee, let alone presented evidence of a $1 million insurance bond.

In any case, the counter-protesters' permit was clearly issued in response to the Unite the Right permit, and the City tried to advantage one and disadvantage the other. The court documents are interesting reading actually. The judge obviously ruled correctly.

Also, to the best of my understanding (and this appear to be corroborated by the counter-protesters), counter-protesters attempted to block the Unite the Right ralliers from reaching Emancipation Park. Surely that would be a violation of the terms of their permit.

Interesting details, thanks.

there was never a question of course that the counterprotesters had no permit to block the entrances to Emancipation Park, which is what set off the violence.

 

[Giordano]

It is interesting how some of our posters seek to depict the Nazis at Charlottesville as quiet law-abiding individuals peacefully exercising their freedom of speech while sitting in chairs and dressed in nice sports jackets. And these quiet and peaceful people were suddenly set upon by mobs of evil Stalinists seeking to kill or cripple these poor Americans who were, in essence, just running a bake sale and an ice cream social to support their day care centers and to buy laundry bleach for washing their hoods.

It is therefore remarkable just how many people of all political persuasions, including so many of the Republican leadership, are blaming the white supremacists for initiating the violence in Charlottesville. It is remarkable how so many of the Nazis came with helmets, body protection, and even guns, whereas most of the counter-demonstrators came with... backpacks. It is remarkable how many of the accounts of the people who were there, and not on one side or the other, also blame the Nazis for initiating the violence.

I recognize that violent acts were committed by individuals on each side- it was clearly a chaotic and confusing scene. But the imaginative narrative of an single sided attack by evil leftists on innocent people just seeking to express their love of Confederate sculpture is ridiculous. And although it is fair to denounce whatever violence occurred on each side, the even greater moral imperative is to denounce the perverted ideals and goals of the white supremacists. The rally itself deserved the strongest condemnation by anyone claiming a position of moral authority whether there was violence or not. Instead, Trump chose to make a series of whiny "Well both sides...." declarations with obviously insipid and insincere "Um, sure- um- Nazis and white supremacists are bad. I said it- okay? okay? Now leave me alone."

 

[johnny karate]

Interesting details, thanks.

there was never a question of course that the counterprotesters had no permit to block the entrances to Emancipation Park, which is what set off the violence.

Are you arguing that the counter-protesters are partly responsible for the Nazi who drove his car into a crowd of people and murdered someone?

Because it kind of looks like you are, so you might want to clarify your statement.

 

[Giordano]

Not quite the whole story. Kessler applied for his permit to use Emancipation Park for a "Free speech rally in support of the Lee Monument" on May 30, 2017. In addition to the $25 permit fee, he had to obtain a $1 million insurance policy (from Evanston Insurance Company). He also estimated attendance at 400.

The City granted his permit on June 13, 2017, then tried to revoke it (or significantly curtail it) on August 7, 2017, leading to a lawsuit filed on August 10, 2017.

No earlier than July 8 (and probably much later) Walt Heinecke applied for a permit for a counter-protest (with up to 1,000 people) at two parks - one which was three blocks to the East and one which was two blocks to the West of Emancipation Park. This permit was approved on July 31. In examining both permits, it strikes me that Heinecke's permit was rather hastily completed (i.e. incomplete) and basically rubber-stamped. There is no evidence that he even paid a fee, let alone presented evidence of a $1 million insurance bond.
In any case, the counter-protesters' permit was clearly issued in response to the Unite the Right permit, and the City tried to advantage one and disadvantage the other. The court documents are interesting reading actually. The judge obviously ruled correctly.

Also, to the best of my understanding (and this appear to be corroborated by the counter-protesters), counter-protesters attempted to block the Unite the Right ralliers from reaching Emancipation Park. Surely that would be a violation of the terms of their permit.

I just highlighted the parts of this post that represent conclusions based on your perceptions and understandings rather than on documented facts. Of course you have the right to your conclusions- it is just that they were so tightly wrapped together with the verifiable facts that I thought it would be helpful to clarify which were which.

 

[crescent]

He retweeted some item (meme?) that showed a person with a hammer-and-sickle flag and a person with a swastika flag. (separate photos). The text was something like "Both these idiots have a right to say what they want to say. They're still both ********."

Did the hammer and sickle flag actually come from Charlotte protesters? Next question, does this fall under false equivalence or is it a fair statement?

As best as I can figure out the anti-demonstration crowd was a mixture of socialists, anarchists, BLM activists and, for some unknown reason, Quakers. I'm sure there were some garden variety liberals in there as well.

I am guessing that there were a few actual communists in the mix as well. I think there are communists in the European Antifa movement. I don't mean that Antifa is communist, just that it is a sort of a coalition that includes communists along with a bunch of other ideological groups. After all, one could argue that Stalin was the strongest anti-fascist in history.

Which makes me think that Minoosh's nephew is conflating the Antifa group with communists. He may be going white nationalist or not, but meme he retweeted just suggests that the creator of the meme thinks that Antifa is communist and that both sides (Antifa and Nazi) suck.

 

[Oystein]

...
As best as I can figure out the anti-demonstration crowd was a mixture of socialists, anarchists, BLM activists and, for some unknown reason, Quakers. I'm sure there were some garden variety liberals in there as well.
...

You are forgetting local concerned citizens.

 

[The Big Dog]

The text was something like "Both these idiots have a right to say what they want to say. They're still both ********."

I'm confused, is it your position that both sides don't have a right to say what they want?

there is absolutely no basis to conclude based on that statement that he is embracing white supremacy, quite the opposite in fact.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

It is interesting how some of our posters seek to depict the Nazis at Charlottesville as quiet law-abiding individuals peacefully exercising their freedom of speech while sitting in chairs and dressed in nice sports jackets. And these quiet and peaceful people were suddenly set upon by mobs of evil Stalinists seeking to kill or cripple these poor Americans who were, in essence, just running a bake sale and an ice cream social to support their day care centers and to buy laundry bleach for washing their hoods.

It is therefore remarkable just how many people of all political persuasions, including so many of the Republican leadership, are blaming the white supremacists for initiating the violence in Charlottesville. It is remarkable how so many of the Nazis came with helmets, body protection, and even guns, whereas most of the counter-demonstrators came with... backpacks.

Of course they came armed for a fight, since they knew it was coming.

It is remarkable how many of the accounts of the people who were there, and not on one side or the other, also blame the Nazis for initiating the violence.

I recognize that violent acts were committed by individuals on each side- it was clearly a chaotic and confusing scene. But the imaginative narrative of an single sided attack by evil leftists on innocent people just seeking to express their love of Confederate sculpture is ridiculous.

I agree it is most likely the White Supremacists started the violence, and most likely it started at the moment they were being blocked by the counter-protestors. But let me ask you this - if the white supremacists hadn't initiated the violence do you think there would have been none? Do you think they would have been allowed to march, congregate and have speakers in peace? And by "peace" I mean without being physically assaulted.

And although it is fair to denounce whatever violence occurred on each side, the even greater moral imperative is to denounce the perverted ideals and goals of the white supremacists.

I think most of us do disagree with most of the ideals and goals of the white supremacists, and those that don't tend to let everyone know. I say most of the goals, because the (perhaps supposed) goal of the rally was for keeping the statue in place. IMO, there are a lot of reasonable people who share this goal.

 

[Oystein]

...
Which makes me think that Minoosh's nephew is conflating the Antifa group with communists. ...

I saw nothing in the description of the meme that identified the hammer-and-sicle side as Antifa?

 

[Giordano]

Of course they came armed for a fight, since they knew it was coming.



I agree it is most likely the White Supremacists started the violence, and most likely it started at the moment they were being blocked by the counter-protestors. But let me ask you this - if the white supremacists hadn't initiated the violence do you think there would have been none? Do you think they would have been allowed to march, congregate and have speakers in peace? And by "peace" I mean without being physically assaulted.



I think most of us do disagree with most of the ideals and goals of the white supremacists, and those that don't tend to let us know. I say most of the goals, because the (perhaps supposed) goal of the rally was for keeping the statue in place. IMO, there are a lot of reasonable people who share this goal.

I am happy to agree with you on the highlighted statements. Great!

As to whether there would have been violence, significant violence, if not initiated by the white supremacist- no, I don't think there would have been. Some pushing perhaps, angry gestures, etc, but not real violence. Particularly if the police did their jobs. But of course no one can ever know for certain.

As for the purpose of the rally- I agree with your (implication) that the supposed purpose of the rally was likely different from the actual purpose intended by the organizers. The supposed purpose of the rally was preserving the Confederate statues, but that was a pretty transparent ruse as I see it. It was obvious that the actual over-reaching theme, the dominant agenda, the symbols, the speeches, the uniforms, the organizers, and the vast bulk of the visible participants were Nazis, KKK, and white supremacists. Although I disagree with the goal of keeping Confederate statues I do not consider most people who have that goal to be Nazis. Nonetheless, to participate in that rally one clearly was willing to align with and support Nazis.

 

[crescent]

I saw nothing in the description of the meme that identified the hammer-and-sicle side as Antifa?

That's true. I am going on the fact the text of the meme appears to contrast two sides. In interviews of some of the Nazi/KKK people, they claimed that Antifa were communists and the resident communist in this forum has been very clearly pro-Antifa. It is clear the Nazi/KKK side strongly dislikes communism and I think the average communist hates the Nazi/KKK side.

So I am going with the idea that the meme is contrasting communism with Nazisim, (mostly falsely) conflating Antifa with communism.

This is probably the image here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHEigecXUAEykXM.jpg

 

[uke2se]

That's true. I am going on the fact the text of the meme appears to contrast two sides. In interviews of some of the Nazi/KKK people, they claimed that Antifa were communists and the resident communist in this forum has been very clearly pro-Antifa. It is clear the Nazi/KKK side strongly dislikes communism and I think the average communist hates the Nazi/KKK side.

So I am going with the idea that the meme is contrasting communism with Nazisim, (mostly falsely) conflating Antifa with communism.

This is probably the image here:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHEigecXUAEykXM.jpg

We have a resident Communist?

 

[crescent]

We have a resident Communist?

Eh, I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Caveman considers himself to be a communist. If not, I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Mind you, I know a lot of communists, a residual of when I lived overseas. The ones I am Facebook friends with are pretty uniformly pro-Antifa.

Minoosh's nephew's meme seems to have originated with a military veteran who is now a MMA fighter, Tim Kennedy. He posted it on Instagram five days ago.

 

[uke2se]

Eh, I could be wrong. I'm pretty sure Caveman considers himself to be a communist. If not, I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

Mind you, I know a lot of communists, a residual of when I lived overseas. The ones I am Facebook friends with are pretty uniformly pro-Antifa.

I also know a lot of communists, as well as anarchists, syndicalists and socialists. All of them, as well as my friends who are not into any kind of extreme politics, or politics at all, are anti-fascists, and most are pro- or at least not discomforted by direct action like what Antifa stands for. Direct action is sometimes the only way you can protect people from the Nazis.

I have no idea if Caveman is a communist. I don't read his posts.

 

[dudalb]

I also know a lot of communists, as well as anarchists, syndicalists and socialists. All of them, as well as my friends who are not into any kind of extreme politics, or politics at all, are anti-fascists, and most are pro- or at least not discomforted by direct action like what Antifa stands for. Direct action is sometimes the only way you can protect people from the Nazis.

I have no idea if Caveman is a communist. I don't read his posts.

I think to advocate political violence is unacceptable and irresponsible.

As for protecting people from the Nazis.....we have something called "The Police" for that.

 

[uke2se]

I think to advocate political violence is unacceptable and irresponsible.

As for protecting people from the Nazis.....we have something called "The Police" for that.

The police can't be everywhere, as shown in Charlottesville. It was Antifa who were protecting the peaceful protesters from Nazi aggression.

 

[dudalb]

A look at antifa

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/legislation-protects-drivers-injure-protesters/index.html

I saw them in action during the Coulter at Berkeley riots, and can testify this article is accurate.
What seems to be overlooked is that only a small percentage of the Anti Nazi Protestors at Charlottsville were Antifa. Where Trump was obnoxious was suggesting that all the protestors were Anitfa.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

A look at antifa

http://www.cnn.com/2017/08/18/us/legislation-protects-drivers-injure-protesters/index.html

I saw them in action during the Coulter at Berkeley riots, and can testify this article is accurate.
What seems to be overlooked is that only a small percentage of the Anti Nazi Protestors at Charlottsville were Antifa. Where Trump was obnoxious was suggesting that all the protestors were Anitfa.

I think you linked to the wrong article.

 

[dudalb]

The police can't be everywhere, as shown in Charlottesville. It was Antifa who were protecting the peaceful protesters from Nazi aggression.

ANd your proof of that is.....Let's be honest, some of the Antifa crowd were probably itching for a fight with the Nazis.
Let's cut to the chase:you approve the use of political violence.
And how about the earlier protests like in Berkeley. I agree that Ann Coulter is truly obnoxious, but she posed a physical threat to no one. Was Antifa right in staging a riot to protest her?