Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

[xjx388]

1.That is what people were saying in Germany in 1933

In 1933, the Nazis were in power and Hitler was named Chancellor. The two situations are not remotely comparable. There is absolutely no party in power that compares to the Nazis - there are no NN/WS with any real political clout.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be vigilant against such people gaining power, only that they are nowhere near that level now and NN/WS are a tiny minority.

2;Yes, and a number of people in Charlotteville were doing that.
I have no great love for Antifa,having seen the Anarchist Wing at work in Berkeley,and my fondness for the Hard Core Marxist wing is very limited...but compared to the Nazis and the Klan......

I would agree that Antifa is the lesser of two evils, but that doesn't make them the "good guys," or even a group we should support.

 

[jimbob]

Er, there was no innuendo. However, if you find yourself equally blaming Nazis and people protesting against them, you *should* examine your moral compass.

Well, first of all, the Nazis (most of whom I suspect know little about the real Nazis of the past, let alone speak German) decided to have a rally and jumped through the legal hoops to get a permit for one. It was not they who confronted somebody else's rally. If these misguided (and frankly pathetic) losers want to have a rally, I don't care, and I would stay far away. If they start showing up to disrupt other people's assemblies, then I would want the police to crack down on them hard. Second, it appears to me quite possible, maybe even likely, that the government (both the state and the city) encouraged a confrontation in order to have an excuse to shut down the rally. To me, that would be a very serious violation of the Nazis' civil rights. Which concerns me not just out of principle, but because there is a rather steep and slippery slope in play.

Here is what a BBC Journalist saw

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40952796/what-trump-said-versus-what-i-saw

If you don't like video, then here is a slate article

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ft_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

Some Anti-fascists are bad, most are good.

I suspect that anybody who actually self-identifies as an anti-fascist is probably a violent *******. I am anti-fascist, as well as anti-communist, but I would not self-identify as one. Just as I wouldn't self-identify as anti-criminal or anti-child molester.

If you look at the Slate article, some of the antifacists were Quakers.

All white supremacists are bad, many are Nazis, all of whom are bad.

It's a bad ideology, but until he commits a crime, I don't think a white supremacist or a Nazi is bad enough to throw in jail, let alone beat up.

What about the situation in Charlottesville, where the Nazis chanted antisemitic slogans outside a synagogue, away from their permitted marching route?

If you are attending a white supremacist march as a supporter, you are supporting something for which there are no redeeming features. You are supporting something bad.

And what if you are supporting somebody's right to attend a white supremacist march as a supporter? How bad is their support?

They are allowed to peacefully protest. That was never their intention. One is allowed to support their right to protest, as the ACLU does, however, if you attend the march as a supporter, then that is supporting the march, not the right to march.

I can't see how one can support Nazis without being a Nazi.

Once again, you are running into a problem with induction. Is a Nazi's mother a Nazi by virtue of her love for her child? Is a Nazi's childhood friend a Nazi, if he doesn't renounce his friendship?

How is this relevant to the discussion about Charlottesville? Being a friend is different to supporting. If you are a non-Nazi that happens to have a Nazi parent, and you support their Nazi activities, then I think that is a distinction without a difference.

If I discovered that someone I had called a friend was a virulent racist, then yes I would disown them, because they were obviously not the person I thought they were.

 

[uke2se]

There's always a whiff of Germany 1933 in the air. Remember the Obama as Hitler posters, or the Bushitler signs? The people making and carrying those ones were idiots, I think we'd all agree.

But this time around you hear the goose-stepping getting louder. Sorry, the Chicken Littles of the past have inured us to the Nazi comparisons.

Yeah, people calling Obama or Bush Nazis is just like people calling Nazis Nazis.

 

[jimbob]

1.That is what people were saying in Germany in 1933
2;Yes, and a number of people in Charlotteville were doing that.
I have no great love for Antifa,having seen the Anarchist Wing at work in Berkeley,and my fondness for the Hard Core Marxist wing is very limited...but compared to the Nazis and the Klan......

Bingo

And the THE ONLY REASON WHY WE ARE SAYING THE OBVIOUS THAT ALL NAZIS ARE BAD IS BECAUSE SOME PEOPLE HERE DON'T SEEM TO GET IT

 

[uke2se]

In 1933, the Nazis were in power and Hitler was named Chancellor. The two situations are not remotely comparable. There is absolutely no party in power that compares to the Nazis - there are no NN/WS with any real political clout.

Trump is president. Trump who tacitly supported the Nazis last weekend.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be vigilant against such people gaining power, only that they are nowhere near that level now and NN/WS are a tiny minority.

At what point will you say "enough is enough" and stand up against the Nazis? What would need to happen?

I would agree that Antifa is the lesser of two evils, but that doesn't make them the "good guys," or even a group we should support.

Yes, it does. The only feature of antifa is that they fight Nazis. That's inherently a good thing.

 

[dudalb]

There's always a whiff of Germany 1933 in the air. Remember the Obama as Hitler posters, or the Bushitler signs? The people making and carrying those ones were idiots, I think we'd all agree.

But this time around you hear the goose-stepping getting louder. Sorry, the Chicken Littles of the past have inured us to the Nazi comparisons.

Sorry, but a President of the United States defending violent Racist is cause for concern.

And, frankly, your side is no better. For you guys there is always a whiff of Russia in 1918 in the air, and the Commies are always coming........

Anyway,I get a feelng you would support anything Trump says and does just so long as you get your goddamn tax cut.

 

[jimbob]

There's always a whiff of Germany 1933 in the air. Remember the Obama as Hitler posters, or the Bushitler signs? The people making and carrying those ones were idiots, I think we'd all agree.

But this time around you hear the goose-stepping getting louder. Sorry, the Chicken Littles of the past have inured us to the Nazi comparisons.

The goose stepping was in the invite

 

[Beelzebuddy]

At what point will you say "enough is enough" and stand up against the Nazis? What would need to happen?

Well, let's go down the list. Communists, social democrats, trade unionists... Have they come for the trade unionists yet? Perhaps that will be time to speak out.

 

[Darat]

...snip...

If you look at the Slate article, some of the antifacists were Quakers.

...snip...

The USA knows what to do with the violent and dangerous quakers!

 

[xjx388]

Of course not. Not with a president who so forcefully rebukes fascists who kill people on the streets.

Or did you just wake up from a week-long coma and are unaware of what happened last weekend?

I was wide awake, I just wasn't wearing my fearmongering hat. I did hear the President condemn the violence and the murderer.

Look, I get it. You see Trump and his supporters as the vanguard of a New White Order. Everything you see is going to be colored by that. I just don't agree with your assessment.

1. Sure. Ignore away. Worked for the people of Germany in the 1920s. and 30s

Again, the USA in 2017 is not 1920s Germany. We are a multicultural melting pot where the views of the WS/NN are a tiny minority.

2. Yes, and there were many non-violent protesters in Charlottesville. When they were attacked by the Nazis, antifa showed up and helped them.

You'll need to provide a cite for this timeline.

The fascism we saw displayed in Charlottesville last Friday and Saturday, and which Donald Trump seems to be fine with.

Oh, you mean the fascism that will likely never be a politically viable force in US Politics? There aren't enough of them to carry out their plans. Hell, whites won't even be a majority in the US much longer -which is what pisses these people off more than anything else. And then again, we are talking about a small minority of white people with these hateful views.

I understand that this small minority of people have fascist views and we need to watch out for that. But let's also not blow their political influence out of proportion.

 

[Tony]

No, it's not obvious, because you took the time to rail against SJWs and Muslims in a thread about Nazis killing people.

I attacked your sacred cows, I must be a Nazi.

In case you actually do care how I feel about this (I doubt you do). I dislike all self-righteous authoritarian moralists who believe themselves to be on the right side of history and believe the world would be a utopia if only people like them were in charge and they could mold society as they see fit. That includes Nazis, communists, islamists, SJWs, and Christian fundamentalists. They're all ****.

It saddens me when any innocent person is a victim of political violence. I wish that all humans could learn to live in peace with each other, but that doesn't seem to be possible. I will admit that the past few years have made me very cynical when it comes to the political situations around the world.

 

[uke2se]

Well, let's go down the list. Communists, social democrats, trade unionists... Have they come for the trade unionists yet? Perhaps that will be time to speak out.

Not sure if serious.

 

[uke2se]

I attacked your sacred cows, I must be a Nazi.

No, you attacked SJWs and Muslims in a thread about Nazis killing people. It's not hard to understand.

In case you actually do care how I feel about this (I doubt you do). I dislike all self-righteous authoritarian moralists who believe themselves to be on the right side of history and believe the world would be a utopia if only people like them were in charge and they could mold society as they see fit. That includes Nazis, communists, islamists, SJWs, and Christian fundamentalists. They're all ****. I'd saddens me when any innocent person is a victim of political violence. I wish that all humans could learn to live in peace with each other, but that doesn't seem to be possible.

Yeah, they're all equally bad. It's the tired all bothsideism that the alt-right is pushing so hard to make the common narrative.

 

[jimbob]

Not sure if serious.

He's fully aware of that quote, you can be sure.

And is making the point you would want to make

 

[The Big Dog]

If you look at the Slate article, some of the antifacists were Quakers.

Couple of points, not all anti-facists are Antifa.

The women were wearing tshirts that said "Quaker." That does not actually mean that they were. By the way, you know who was a Quaker?

 

[uke2se]

I was wide awake, I just wasn't wearing my fearmongering hat. I did hear the President condemn the violence and the murderer.

Did you hear him condemn the counter-protesters?

Look, I get it. You see Trump and his supporters as the vanguard of a New White Order. Everything you see is going to be colored by that. I just don't agree with your assessment.

I see Nazis as Nazis. I also see that Trump is soft on - or even curious of - Nazis.

Again, the USA in 2017 is not 1920s Germany. We are a multicultural melting pot where the views of the WS/NN are a tiny minority.

A recent poll showed that 21 percent of those asked thought that the white supremacists in Charlottesville "have a point".

You'll need to provide a cite for this timeline.

It's been posted several times. Last time was 8 posts above yours.

Oh, you mean the fascism that will likely never be a politically viable force in US Politics? There aren't enough of them to carry out their plans. Hell, whites won't even be a majority in the US much longer -which is what pisses these people off more than anything else. And then again, we are talking about a small minority of white people with these hateful views.

Again, 21 percent of those asked in a poll thought that the white supremacists "have a point".

I understand that this small minority of people have fascist views and we need to watch out for that. But let's also not blow their political influence out of proportion.

Nobody is. We are calling it as we see it. The US president wink-wink-nudge-nudged with Nazis.

 

[sunmaster14]

Here is what a BBC Journalist saw

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-us-canada-40952796/what-trump-said-versus-what-i-saw

If you don't like video, then here is a slate article

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...ft_was_actually_doing_in_charlottesville.html

Your links appear to support my understanding that the counter protesters tried to disrupt the rally, and some did so violently. Even linking arms and passively blocking rally goers from getting to their rally is unacceptable in my view.

If you look at the Slate article, some of the antifacists were Quakers.

Quakers do not call themselves antifascists. And I very much doubt that any Quakers actually threw a bottle or a rock or a punch.

What about the situation in Charlottesville, where the Nazis chanted antisemitic slogans outside a synagogue, away from their permitted marching route?

Is this the Friday night event? They should have been dispersed by police if they didn't have a permit. By Saturday, however, Friday night wasn't terribly relevant.

They are allowed to peacefully protest. That was never their intention.

You can't know that. I actually believe if they had been met by counter-protesters separated by a reasonable distance (which the police should have maintained), it would have been a peaceful rally, and we almost certainly wouldn't be discussing it now.

One is allowed to support their right to protest, as the ACLU does, however, if you attend the march as a supporter, then that is supporting the march, not the right to march.

My point is that people here are tarring supporters of X or defenders of X as X. By induction, anybody who has a non-zero amount of empathy or sympathy for anybody who disagrees with people absolutely opposed to X (call those people Y) is an X. In this case, Y is a member of Antifa, and X is a Nazi.

How is this relevant to the discussion about Charlottesville? Being a friend is different to supporting. If you are a non-Nazi that happens to have a Nazi parent, and you support their Nazi activities, then I think that is a distinction without a difference.

If I discovered that someone I had called a friend was a virulent racist, then yes I would disown them, because they were obviously not the person I thought they were.

Bully for you. How about a friend of yours who is also a friend of a Nazi who refuses to disown his Nazi friend?

 

[xjx388]

Trump is president. Trump who tacitly supported the Nazis last weekend.

I don't see it that way. He condemned them. That he also condemned Antifa does not diminish that; one can condemn two opposing sides in a fight without tacitly supporting any of them. It was clear to me that he is against the Nazis AND Antifa.

At what point will you say "enough is enough" and stand up against the Nazis? What would need to happen?

I will always stand up against the Nazis. If they were to march through my neck of the woods, you can be sure that I will be there in non-violent protest. If a NN/WS should ever run for a political office, I will be there to support whoever is against -screw party affiliations. But we are nowhere near that level right now. Like I said, they are a tiny minority and there's a hell of a lot more of us than there are of them.

Yes, it does. The only feature of antifa is that they fight Nazis. That's inherently a good thing.

That is not their only feature. They are represented a wide range of ideologies and you can't pigeonhole them into a solitary "Nazi Fighter" category.

 

[dudalb]

God, some people just don't get why Nazism is considered the epitome of evil. They are either incredibly ignorant, are rightwingers who don't want to see the evil that the right is capable of (and I readily admit there are people on the left who are the same way) or is just trying way too hard to be edgy.

 

[uke2se]

I don't see it that way. He condemned them. That he also condemned Antifa does not diminish that; one can condemn two opposing sides in a fight without tacitly supporting any of them. It was clear to me that he is against the Nazis AND Antifa.

That's not clear to me. Nor is it clear to the Nazis. They took his words as support, and that, really, is what matters.

I will always stand up against the Nazis. If they were to march through my neck of the woods, you can be sure that I will be there in non-violent protest. If a NN/WS should ever run for a political office, I will be there to support whoever is against -screw party affiliations. But we are nowhere near that level right now. Like I said, they are a tiny minority and there's a hell of a lot more of us than there are of them.

I do not believe you.

That is not their only feature. They are represented a wide range of ideologies and you can't pigeonhole them into a solitary "Nazi Fighter" category.

Antifa has only one feature. Antifa consists of people from many groups and political affiliations, but as a group, Antifa is only about taking direct action against Nazis and fascists.