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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

Certainly I am deeply upset seeing the POTUS supporting the white supremacists ("Oh, but he denounced Nazis and the KKK!" Yes, briefly, unenthusiastically, and clearly under duress, Just view his press conferences and decide whose side really had his sympathy and his enthusiasm. And compare the many parallels between the white supremacists' talking points and Trump's). But as I thought about it more, I saw a bright spot: Trump is probably one of the only people on Earth whose support will eventually prove embarrassing to Nazis! He's done it before, again and again- to be Trump's "pal" is fleeting and ultimately ends up leaving the pal with a shattered reputation and (often) career.

In many ways I think it is already happening. Trump's response to Charlottesville has revoted enough people throughout all levels of society, both Democrats and Republicans in the USA, and in multiple countries, to inspire then to speak out angrily and publicly against the white supremacists. Would as many of them have bothered or felt the responsibility to do so if not for the cringe worthy performances of the POTUS?

Perhaps in a few months we will see the KKK and Nazis trying to distance themselves from Trump!
 
PhantomWolf said:
And Freedom of Speech and Expression allows me to stand beside you with a bullhorn and drown you out.
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Noise ordinances can be applied. I find it to be a convenient tool to make the logistics of assembly much more difficult, yes. But it is written to apply to all sustained noise levels. With permits, one may be allowed exceptions like construction, street/park festivals, etc. and thus have a gathering. The hurdles for getting such a permit or evidence of patterns of politically-motivated rejections is the meat of the discussion there.

It uses both. Standing across steps with arms linked to prevent marchers getting through is both non-violent and legal. Defending one self, or others against people attacking you is legal, but not non-violent.
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Not entirely legal, no. It is unlawful to prevent others free movement in public space. I would heartily applaud those willing to take arrest to make their point to do the chain and passively accept 1-by-1 arrest.

This is, in part, where the police failed. As soon as the entrances were blockaded, they should have been establishing a neutral zone, giving the blockers warnings (lawful orders of officers).

The blockers should have designated people to find ranking officers and explain to them that they will passively surrender, but the general idea is to drag things out. Then you get about an hour of chanting and singing by the supporters outside the perimeter while the ones taking arrest get loaded on buses to be processed and released with no charges because you have a legal fund and contacted the NLG (National Lawyer's Guild) in advance.

You did get a legal fund and call the NLG in advance, right?

(ambiguous 'you', of course :9)

ETA: This opens the door to blasting the police chief, the mayor, the city council, etc for using city resources to arrest innocent people who wanted to stop Nazis, etc. This makes the cop who truly is good at heart -putting cuffs on someone for sitting down so that bigots can have their rally- have to ask some deep questions about "which side are you on?" This is divide-and-conquer thrown back in power's face. This is how you win.

No one is condoning any use of illegal violence.
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You may not be, but yeah, there is a lot of condoning of illegal use of violence right now.
 
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Is the Big Dog seriously hiding behind the ACLU in his defense of Nazis now?

Jeez... and I thought he had already jumped the shark.
 
PhantomWolf said:
To be fair, most of those carry rifles came from one of two groups, one, the Three Percenters, who are a Libertarian Militia group who was acting a security for the Alt-Right,
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There are certainly pictures of them with white supremacist insignia on themselves holding their weapons.
 
Stacko said:
They were very unambiguous in their advertising of the rally:

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1331&pictureid=11383[/qimg]

You don't show up for that rally unless you're a white nationalist.
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Or incredibly ignorant about who any of the speakers are and what any of the symbols mean.
 
Shalamar said:
why do you oppose the 'antifa' their freedom of speech? You must hate free speech! Or are only cars used by the right considered free speech?
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I don't think I've ever seen a rally organized by Antifa. It seems to be a group primarily designed to disrupt "fascist" rallies and deny "fascists" their freedom of speech. I suspect that the group comprises people who get off on destroying property and hurting people, but they want to feel self-righteous while doing it. Fascists of course give them a perfect outlet to satisfy their urges, but I think they're rather flexible about whom they see as fascist.
 
The Big Dog said:
Might want to take a gander at who represented the Illinois Nazis in the Skokie case...
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Yup.

ACLU associate director Mel Rosenblatt agreed. "The real danger here is not the American Nazi Party," he said. "The real danger here is what would happen to the rest of us if the Buddy Carvers of this world were not allowed to commit arson against ******-loving, bleeding-heart-liberal Jew attorneys."
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sunmaster14 said:
I don't think I've ever seen a rally organized by Antifa. It seems to be a group primarily designed to disrupt "fascist" rallies and deny "fascists" their freedom of speech. I suspect that the group comprises people who get off on destroying property and hurting people, but they want to feel self-righteous while doing it. Fascists of course give them a perfect outlet to satisfy their urges, but I think they're rather flexible about whom they see as fascist.
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Oh they have a few, primarily overseas. They lit a bunch of police officers on fire on May Day this year. Some pictures:

https://www.aol.com/article/news/20...-left-group-defends-use-of-violence/22067671/
 
Oystein said:
This. 100% this.
Every right winger who showed up did so with a very specific intent to endorse Naziism, to endors White Supremacism, to endorse the KKK.

Sceptik Tank, Emily's Cat, TBD, Sunmaster. When you get an invitation by White Supremacists, and they ask you to unite with Nazis and KKK - do you heed the invitation, thinking this is what a good person will do?

This is a Yes/No question. Please don't wiggle.
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https://twitter.com/erinscafe/status/898216191176482816

"Nice people made the best Nazis. My mom grew up next to them. They got along, refused to make waves, looked the other way when things got ugly and focused on happier things than "politics." They were lovely people who turned their heads as their neighbors were dragged away. You know who weren't nice people? Resisters." - Naomi Shulman
 
Oystein said:
The Big Dog said:
If one is for Antifa and their violent tactics, one is against free speech and the freedom of expression.
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Now try to say the exact same thing about the good people marching with KKK and Nazis in a rally that has the express purpose of aligning said good people with said KKK and Nazis! :)

Next, try to say the exact same thing about Nazis and - yourself :)
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Unsurprisingly, The Big Dog was unable to say something very easy:
People marching and uniting with Nazis and their violent tactics are against free speech and the freedom of expression.
 
Oystein said:
This. 100% this.
Every right winger who showed up did so with a very specific intent to endorse Naziism, to endors White Supremacism, to endorse the KKK.

Sceptik Tank, Emily's Cat, TBD, Sunmaster. When you get an invitation by White Supremacists, and they ask you to unite with Nazis and KKK - do you heed the invitation, thinking this is what a good person will do?

This is a Yes/No question. Please don't wiggle.
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Unsurprisingly, Sunmaster and The Big Dog were unable to give the easy short answer "No".
I thinkj we must take their silence as a tacit "Yes, marching with Nazis and KKK is what fine people do" - just as the President believes.
 
Here's another wrinkle to consider.

The same tactics being cheered today have been poison-pilling BLM protests for years. BLM tends to do things like vigils and marches. Then half a mile away a group which never coordinated with or offered themselves gets all the camera time with nonsense under the guise of "protecting black lives."
 
Oystein said:
Unsurprisingly, Sunmaster and The Big Dog were unable to give the easy short answer "No".
I thinkj we must take their silence as a tacit "Yes, marching with Nazis and KKK is what fine people do" - just as the President believes.
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I didn't see that you had addressed me, since at best I only skim your posts. Also, if you had been reading my posts you would see that I fully agreed with phiwum that likely everybody at the rally was a white nationalist or supremacist in some fashion, and therefore not "fine," at least as to their ideology. I did find a Nazi flag in the images, and that should have been the tip-off to any confused moderates there that they should skedaddle.
 
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